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foreign

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[Music]

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[Laughter]

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[Music]

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welcome back to another episode of

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liminal frames I'm your host Nathan and

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I'm joined by my co-host Darren EXO

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academian Tonight Darren I think we're

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gonna get a little bit strange

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we are maybe a little bit highly strange

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in fact it's really strange

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exactly yes tonight we're talking about

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high strangeness uh a term that is used

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frequently in our circles and

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maybe not necessarily with a great

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degree of uh clarity

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or consensus and so we thought it might

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be good to focus a little attention on

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exactly what constitutes High

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strangeness

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why it's important uh what might be some

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examples of this within not only

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ufological circles but the Paranormal

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and then I think land on what high

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strangeness really kind of means for

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reality and and uh

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the way in which we look at the world so

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why don't we start off with the

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definition

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that you provided I'll I'll read it for

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for everyone so we're going to Define

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High strangeness as

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a quality of being peculiar bizarre

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utterly absurd

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and I love that it's uh it's got this

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ramping up quality to it uh

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and does Point definitely towards the

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Oddity of it all so what does it mean to

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you Darren when you when you think about

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high strangeness and and that definition

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of particular and and the importance of

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this to to our our topic of Interest

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the first thing that occurs to me when I

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even listen to that definition that we

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came across

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is that it's qualitative in nature right

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and so much of uh our modern Western

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Civilization is about uh quantity rather

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than quality and qualitative experience

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has kind of been relegated to subjective

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mushy stuff that uh doesn't really count

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and doesn't really matter

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that's one of the reasons I think why

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historically the high strangeness that

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is so Central to this phenomenon has

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been discarded or suppressed or

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underrepresented in terms of data that

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we need to really wrestle with in terms

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of what you just said in terms of what

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it means for reality itself right

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um these can't be one-off experiences if

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this experience of bizarreness and

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absurdity even is happening it's saying

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something uh

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deeply significant about the nature of

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reality at least I'm convinced that's

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the case I think most people that have

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really done their research recognize

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that too I remember Peter lavenda in his

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interview with our friend James iandoli

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on engaging the phenomenon said hi

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strangeness is a feature not a bug with

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this phenomenon it's Central in other

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words and to ignore it uh is to miss the

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point of the Endeavor it's as Central as

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the Consciousness component in many ways

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I think so I think but all those things

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um

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but I think for people like you and I

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the way we're wired uh we always go to

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the deepest level possible so we start

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thinking what does this mean for reality

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that's the most interesting question for

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me when I think about this

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and I've always been fascinated uh

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by The Works of Jacques valet for

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example who wasn't

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really afraid at looking at all of the

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data elements of the experience

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and he didn't seem to be quick to

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discard

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as well this

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this doesn't seem related at all to flag

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saucers or what have you so we're just

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not going to include the strange uh

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dreams or other events that may have

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occurred around this sighting

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uh but it does seem like we are entering

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into a time in which

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High strangeness is kind of becoming in

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Vogue uh to at least to start looking at

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that right I can remember as a younger

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person thinking about UFOs and really

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only thinking about it in a very

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one-dimensional way

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um you know through the lens of

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Hollywood or the Roswell incident

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never even can remotely considering that

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there were other

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strange qualities of the experience that

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that went along with those stories uh

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just being oblivious to them and that's

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in part because the narratives

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themselves didn't include them

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so it seems as if we now are at a place

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where we're willing to re-examine all of

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the facets of the experience and try to

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come away with some learnings but how do

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you think about

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the concept of high strangeness in the

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history of the topic what do you see it

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emerging and and it's it's role Within

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These sort of

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big events in in history

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right when you pointed out valet I think

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he's been a central character in terms

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of uh legitimizing uh the high

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strangeness and demanding that we look

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at it as another uh data set

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um because he as I've said many times

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before

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because his approach was to actually be

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a kind of boots on the ground

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investigator he would you know fly

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across the world if he needed to to meet

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with experiencers ideally before they

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had come into contact with a bunch of

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ufologists who perhaps had biased or

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prejudiced or limited their story or

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tried to you know Steer their story uh

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valet went in and tried to have a really

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objective take on what they were

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experiencing and once he established

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that they were credible people who were

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professionals who had family lives and

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reputations like all of us and he

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recognized that they were not doing this

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for fame or fortune or notoriety

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he he began to recognize there's

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something really weird happening to

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people around UFOs you know

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um and in some ways

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you know he got to a point where the

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UFOs were kind of secondary to the

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primary experience of the uh you know

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the cosmic connection

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um

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so

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he's been Central for legitimizing it as

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has John Keel uh and even people like J

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Allen heineck uh to his credit came

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around to seeing that as well

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um because you know I'll refresh

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people's memory that going back in the

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20th century ufology when you're doing

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your darndest as a researcher to try and

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be have your fields of inquiry taken

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seriously by the mainstream

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the last thing you need is a bunch of

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weird stuff that sounds like hauntings

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uh or paranormal stuff you know coming

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into the mix it's going to just make it

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much less likely that you'll be taken

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seriously in the mainstream and you

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often see this as kind of a nuts and

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bulge technology of extraterrestrial

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beings who've flown here from Alpha

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Centauri or whatever and and so you

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often get to the point where you

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actively suppress it or refuse cases

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that have too much High strangeness you

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know

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um

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or if if you are forced to deal with

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some you'll just downplay that and and

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and because as I you know pointed out in

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my recent talk in New York because

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there's no sort of peer review of how

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data is analyzed and presented and

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collated

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people just kind of willy-nilly pick the

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parts they want to talk about and

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exclude the rest so for a long time I

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think this was underrepresented in the

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material historically and again as to

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his credit people like valet and Keel

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that really brought it to our attention

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to the point where now we see the

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Paranormal and hauntology that's

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h-a-u-n-t Haunting in other words

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ontology and ufology all being part of a

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meta category actually I think that's

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the way we think about it now or the way

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we need to think about it

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right the degree to which we often

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self-audit our experience

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as well comes to mind

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how often have we heard examples where

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someone will recount their story

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their experience and leave out some

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really big components of it only to

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later when it feels more comfortable and

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that might be in the setting of a

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therapist's office or with a group of

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other experiencers they'll open up and

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say well you know and this other thing

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happened that I haven't told anyone and

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I don't really know what to do with it I

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I had this crazy dream or I had this

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Poltergeist activity in the house or

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oftentimes it can also be something

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sexual in that nature which is something

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we absolutely are used to suppressing in

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our culture

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um so you have all these elements that

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are in that mix in the soup but we

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really just want to we want something

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we're just pulling out the vegetables

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because we can easily identify them we

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can't see all the things that are in the

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in the broth you know uh so it's

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it's a fundamentally important part of

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of the experience uh to separate them

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out I think is doing a great disservice

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it's also one of the most challenging

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things to account for uh in our attempt

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to understand what it is

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right because many times the the high

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strange qualities of the experience are

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so subjective and contextual that it's

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difficult for us to go okay well

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these were all the craft of the same

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kind of shape and there you know it we

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we could we so easily can categorize a

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spaceship quote unquote rather than some

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sort of paranormal type of experience or

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dream state or or what have you how do

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you think about the the kind of just the

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challenge of incorporating High

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strangeness into the narrative and into

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an ability to understand what this

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actually is

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well I think I would actually turn that

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question on its head in some ways and

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say that I think the people who really

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have become Die Hard researchers and

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have really grappled honestly with this

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material

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actually end up deciding that unless a

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narrative experience includes some

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absurdity or high strangeness they're

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not sure it's actually a real account in

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other words it's so Central to these

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experiences that if there's not an

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element of weirdness bizarreness

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absurdity there are people like I think

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even Anne streber Whitley strieber's

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late wife

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we talk about that you know when people

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would write them in with letters

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if there wasn't a little bit of that

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like what you know element to it um she

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wasn't sure whether to take the account

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seriously

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um Bernardo Castro's talked about that

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as well he wrote a really great book

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called meaning in absurdity

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and he talks about the very same thing

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if the story is too like sci-fi you know

280
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:42,300
aliens came down landed took me back to

281
00:11:47,389 --> 00:11:45,360
their planet sugaba and I met some

282
00:11:49,550 --> 00:11:47,399
strange you know green-headed aliens and

283
00:11:51,769 --> 00:11:49,560
then came back and they flew away and

284
00:11:54,290 --> 00:11:51,779
gave me you know mince cakes or

285
00:11:57,470 --> 00:11:54,300
something to give to my family if it's

286
00:12:00,829 --> 00:11:57,480
too straight laced and there's no like

287
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:00,839
impact on Consciousness and after

288
00:12:06,170 --> 00:12:03,120
effects and residual experiences that

289
00:12:08,630 --> 00:12:06,180
are weird it tends to perhaps point to

290
00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:08,640
the the story not being actually an

291
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:10,800
example of the UFO phenomenon which

292
00:12:14,269 --> 00:12:12,720
again we mean that broadly to Paranormal

293
00:12:16,370 --> 00:12:14,279
stuff as well so

294
00:12:17,769 --> 00:12:16,380
it like I say like lavender said it's a

295
00:12:21,290 --> 00:12:17,779
feature not a bug

296
00:12:24,670 --> 00:12:21,300
well before we begin unpacking the sort

297
00:12:26,690 --> 00:12:24,680
of sub qualities of this definition

298
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:26,700
maybe we can spend a second talking

299
00:12:32,449 --> 00:12:30,720
about why it is that we are prone to

300
00:12:35,090 --> 00:12:32,459
discard

301
00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:35,100
the high strangeness generally and here

302
00:12:39,470 --> 00:12:37,140
I'm talking about a favorite sort of

303
00:12:43,129 --> 00:12:39,480
whipping post for our show and that's uh

304
00:12:45,650 --> 00:12:43,139
the the Paradigm of physicalism and uh

305
00:12:49,490 --> 00:12:45,660
our our Temptation and tendency to just

306
00:12:52,269 --> 00:12:49,500
discard things that we cannot uh reduce

307
00:12:56,269 --> 00:12:52,279
down to these materialistic qualities

308
00:12:59,389 --> 00:12:56,279
and it strikes me that we uh

309
00:13:01,970 --> 00:12:59,399
we're throwing the the bath water out

310
00:13:03,769 --> 00:13:01,980
and leaving the baby in in the bathtub

311
00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:03,779
um and saying there was the bath water

312
00:13:08,629 --> 00:13:06,360
is not unimportant to this bath

313
00:13:11,569 --> 00:13:08,639
so you know how do you think about that

314
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:11,579
interplay uh in in the 20th century and

315
00:13:15,769 --> 00:13:13,680
now in the 21st century is we're

316
00:13:18,590 --> 00:13:15,779
beginning to see that there may be more

317
00:13:20,990 --> 00:13:18,600
to reality than we once thought

318
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:21,000
yeah it's a good point and I I see

319
00:13:27,050 --> 00:13:24,959
people when they enter into this topic

320
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,060
which becomes addictive in many ways

321
00:13:32,449 --> 00:13:29,519
right we were talking before we went on

322
00:13:34,490 --> 00:13:32,459
about how it even creates uh difficulty

323
00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:34,500
in people's relational lives and their

324
00:13:39,170 --> 00:13:37,260
families and whatnot because

325
00:13:41,569 --> 00:13:39,180
for people who really get taken in by

326
00:13:43,250 --> 00:13:41,579
this topic it it does end up being

327
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:43,260
questions about reality and why we're

328
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:45,600
here and the big questions and for those

329
00:13:49,370 --> 00:13:47,519
who don't take it seriously it can

330
00:13:53,090 --> 00:13:49,380
create some distance and some

331
00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:53,100
uh some conflict in those relationships

332
00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:54,180
um

333
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:56,220
but you know I I think that what I see

334
00:14:01,490 --> 00:13:59,760
people doing is they'll try to hold on

335
00:14:04,490 --> 00:14:01,500
to their current Paradigm right the

336
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,500
current narrating way of seeing reality

337
00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:06,720
until there's just so much data they

338
00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:08,100
have no choice but to move a little bit

339
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:09,540
further away from that and then another

340
00:14:12,430 --> 00:14:11,040
step and then another step until

341
00:14:15,170 --> 00:14:12,440
eventually

342
00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:15,180
you determine that our working

343
00:14:19,069 --> 00:14:17,160
conventional model of reality with

344
00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:19,079
physicalism is just not tenable you know

345
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:22,980
and I think about the analogy of uh when

346
00:14:26,569 --> 00:14:24,360
I went from being you know an

347
00:14:28,370 --> 00:14:26,579
Evangelical to to not being an

348
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:28,380
Evangelical

349
00:14:32,449 --> 00:14:30,959
um and and now being very spiritual but

350
00:14:33,889 --> 00:14:32,459
not identifying with any particular

351
00:14:35,930 --> 00:14:33,899
religious tradition even though I've

352
00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:35,940
been very influenced both by

353
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:37,620
Christianity and by Buddhism for

354
00:14:40,189 --> 00:14:38,880
instance

355
00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:40,199
um

356
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,940
I remember going through a phase where

357
00:14:45,230 --> 00:14:43,680
you know first you're solidly you know

358
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:45,240
Southern Baptist or something right and

359
00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:47,279
then you're kind of like I'm gonna flirt

360
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:49,440
with Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy

361
00:14:53,449 --> 00:14:51,600
right and that's cool but it's still a

362
00:14:54,949 --> 00:14:53,459
little bit too like dogmatic so that I'm

363
00:14:56,569 --> 00:14:54,959
going to be like emergent church right

364
00:14:58,970 --> 00:14:56,579
and now I'm really cutting edge there's

365
00:14:59,930 --> 00:14:58,980
a lot of post-modernism but eventually

366
00:15:01,790 --> 00:14:59,940
you get to point where you say to

367
00:15:04,009 --> 00:15:01,800
yourself I think I'm kind of fooling

368
00:15:07,490 --> 00:15:04,019
myself like I'm really not in this Camp

369
00:15:09,530 --> 00:15:07,500
anymore and as scary as it is in these

370
00:15:12,170 --> 00:15:09,540
kinds of experiences existentially right

371
00:15:14,990 --> 00:15:12,180
so step outside those borders and say I

372
00:15:17,449 --> 00:15:15,000
no longer identify as this

373
00:15:19,250 --> 00:15:17,459
um I think those are some of the most

374
00:15:21,470 --> 00:15:19,260
transformative experiences in our lives

375
00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:21,480
so when that happens and I think that's

376
00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:23,880
what happens with this phenomenon in

377
00:15:28,689 --> 00:15:25,980
people's uh that are really interested

378
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:28,699
in this and and taken with it is that

379
00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:30,480
eventually it gets to the point where

380
00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:33,420
they're like this is more Central

381
00:15:38,569 --> 00:15:36,060
to what's going on who I am why I'm here

382
00:15:40,970 --> 00:15:38,579
what all of this means then the things I

383
00:15:42,829 --> 00:15:40,980
used to be taken with so

384
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:42,839
um that's the trajectory I see people

385
00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:44,399
going through

386
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:49,009
and I think that's one of the reasons as

387
00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:50,880
we've discussed before in this podcast

388
00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:53,339
why the notion of disclosure for so many

389
00:15:56,829 --> 00:15:55,500
reasons is challenging but one of them

390
00:16:00,290 --> 00:15:56,839
being that

391
00:16:03,410 --> 00:16:00,300
the most of our conventional thinking

392
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:03,420
Society is not prepared to say what's on

393
00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:05,279
the table here is the very nature of

394
00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:06,959
reality and yet I don't know how you

395
00:16:12,009 --> 00:16:09,000
really enter into this discussion

396
00:16:17,810 --> 00:16:15,350
well you can see uh pretty much every

397
00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:17,820
day and in our circles the kind of

398
00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:21,120
posturing that occurs in

399
00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:24,060
seeking legitimacy by saying well I'm

400
00:16:30,650 --> 00:16:26,100
not interested in

401
00:16:31,370 --> 00:16:30,660
the woo that I can't explain in a data

402
00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:31,380
set

403
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:34,560
if you're not bringing me data then

404
00:16:40,129 --> 00:16:37,279
it's not real uh

405
00:16:42,889 --> 00:16:40,139
discarding the fact that

406
00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:42,899
time and time again in the data

407
00:16:46,730 --> 00:16:44,820
through the experience

408
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:46,740
people having the experience are telling

409
00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:49,440
you this is what's happening well I

410
00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:51,480
can't I don't have an imprint on the

411
00:16:56,269 --> 00:16:53,759
ground I don't have a photograph well it

412
00:16:58,189 --> 00:16:56,279
that stuff is happening only in your

413
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:58,199
mind and these other things are

414
00:17:03,050 --> 00:17:00,959
happening in physical reality and

415
00:17:04,850 --> 00:17:03,060
there's that posturing that that occurs

416
00:17:07,669 --> 00:17:04,860
to try to gain

417
00:17:10,669 --> 00:17:07,679
uh lift legitimacy with

418
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:10,679
our society at large and and recognizing

419
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:12,799
that these are things we will value

420
00:17:17,449 --> 00:17:15,839
these are things we won't and where I

421
00:17:19,309 --> 00:17:17,459
get frustrated with this and we talked

422
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:19,319
about this before

423
00:17:26,270 --> 00:17:22,319
we wanna we went on air tonight is that

424
00:17:28,250 --> 00:17:26,280
I would argue almost everyone has some

425
00:17:30,610 --> 00:17:28,260
experience in their life

426
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:30,620
that is

427
00:17:36,529 --> 00:17:34,080
grounded in intuition and feeling and

428
00:17:39,289 --> 00:17:36,539
something that is inexplicable and it

429
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:39,299
has a dramatic impact on the trajectory

430
00:17:43,970 --> 00:17:41,039
of a person's life

431
00:17:45,710 --> 00:17:43,980
that that the kinds of events that we

432
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:45,720
like to be able to point to and say well

433
00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:48,240
this is real because I can put it into a

434
00:17:55,310 --> 00:17:52,260
lab experiment those kinds of things are

435
00:17:57,289 --> 00:17:55,320
make up a small quantity of the events

436
00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:57,299
that have profound impact on who we

437
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:58,500
think we are

438
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:00,480
who we choose to be

439
00:18:04,909 --> 00:18:03,600
in the world how we Define our story

440
00:18:07,010 --> 00:18:04,919
so I find it just incredibly

441
00:18:09,650 --> 00:18:07,020
disingenuous and frustrating that we go

442
00:18:12,169 --> 00:18:09,660
around you know clamoring for all of

443
00:18:15,049 --> 00:18:12,179
this data making it sound like it's so

444
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:15,059
relevant and important at least data of

445
00:18:20,330 --> 00:18:18,000
a certain kind yet discarding

446
00:18:21,710 --> 00:18:20,340
just a giant swath of The Human

447
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:21,720
Experience

448
00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:25,080
and to me that's one of the benefits the

449
00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:28,080
beauties of this study

450
00:18:33,289 --> 00:18:31,320
is that it it redeems those things and

451
00:18:34,490 --> 00:18:33,299
gives them a place at that table in the

452
00:18:37,730 --> 00:18:34,500
conversation

453
00:18:40,010 --> 00:18:37,740
and as you say points to that

454
00:18:43,970 --> 00:18:40,020
fundamental question reality is not as

455
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:43,980
it seems okay what is it really

456
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:46,320
right and I would I would add that when

457
00:18:50,450 --> 00:18:48,720
people talk about you know

458
00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:50,460
can you reduce this to something that's

459
00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:52,140
reproducible in a lab for instance

460
00:18:55,070 --> 00:18:53,640
because you brought up you know what is

461
00:18:56,029 --> 00:18:55,080
data

462
00:19:00,830 --> 00:18:56,039
um

463
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:00,840
always worth saying again that

464
00:19:05,210 --> 00:19:03,120
when you have a lot of accounts of very

465
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:05,220
similar experiences with very common

466
00:19:09,710 --> 00:19:08,160
themes and those themes are weird and

467
00:19:11,090 --> 00:19:09,720
people don't want to have to admit those

468
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:11,100
themes and yet they show up time and

469
00:19:14,570 --> 00:19:13,200
time again that's a good indication that

470
00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:14,580
actually there's

471
00:19:19,549 --> 00:19:17,039
um validity to those claims that those

472
00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:19,559
elements really are there somehow

473
00:19:24,830 --> 00:19:22,980
now the question uh around is this

474
00:19:27,049 --> 00:19:24,840
Justin people's heads becomes kind of an

475
00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:27,059
ironic question because

476
00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:29,100
where you and I have landed is that kind

477
00:19:34,190 --> 00:19:31,260
of you know reality itself is a

478
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:34,200
mentation process that ultimately mind

479
00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:36,360
stuff is behind what we perceive as

480
00:19:40,970 --> 00:19:38,400
physicality so

481
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:40,980
in that extent everything is in our

482
00:19:45,169 --> 00:19:43,200
heads right but not our physical heads

483
00:19:46,850 --> 00:19:45,179
but our our larger stream of

484
00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:46,860
Consciousness kind of meditation process

485
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:48,840
of which we are apart

486
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:51,840
um and then on top of that I think about

487
00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:54,720
you know for instance when I

488
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:56,760
depending on which circles I'm I'm in I

489
00:20:02,390 --> 00:19:59,039
will be you know more forthcoming or not

490
00:20:03,549 --> 00:20:02,400
around contact experiences I've had and

491
00:20:05,690 --> 00:20:03,559
information

492
00:20:08,090 --> 00:20:05,700
downloads I've had right and depending

493
00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:08,100
on who's listening and how bizarre I

494
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,720
think that will be to them you know I

495
00:20:13,490 --> 00:20:11,520
decide whether or not to talk about it

496
00:20:15,950 --> 00:20:13,500
but I've had some people say well okay

497
00:20:17,630 --> 00:20:15,960
so can you reproduce that in a lab

498
00:20:19,549 --> 00:20:17,640
in other words like in their mind that's

499
00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:19,559
the only way that would be legitimate

500
00:20:22,190 --> 00:20:20,940
right and prove that it was really

501
00:20:24,049 --> 00:20:22,200
happening

502
00:20:26,570 --> 00:20:24,059
but of course what that forgets is that

503
00:20:29,330 --> 00:20:26,580
you're you're even claiming to be in

504
00:20:31,370 --> 00:20:29,340
contact with another intelligence that's

505
00:20:34,610 --> 00:20:31,380
not something that just like will repeat

506
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:34,620
in a lab right uh if you even try and

507
00:20:38,510 --> 00:20:37,200
take a a dog or a pet you know and bring

508
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:38,520
them into a lab and get them to do

509
00:20:43,330 --> 00:20:40,080
something it can get challenging let

510
00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:43,340
alone some super sophisticated you know

511
00:20:48,890 --> 00:20:46,980
non-physical intelligence right

512
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:48,900
um you know John Alexander's talked

513
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:49,919
about

514
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:51,840
places like Skinwalker Ranch and

515
00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:54,240
observing what he called precognitive

516
00:20:59,210 --> 00:20:57,120
sentient phenomena which was his way of

517
00:21:01,490 --> 00:20:59,220
describing

518
00:21:03,409 --> 00:21:01,500
trying to conduct scientific experiments

519
00:21:06,289 --> 00:21:03,419
like you would in a lab right saying

520
00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:06,299
let's let's test to see if a is true and

521
00:21:09,529 --> 00:21:08,340
the way we'll try and prove the a is

522
00:21:11,810 --> 00:21:09,539
true is we'll set up this experiment

523
00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:11,820
we'll do it right if a happens we know

524
00:21:16,669 --> 00:21:15,120
that yay our hypothesis is confirmed or

525
00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:16,679
if not we'll we'll plan something else

526
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:19,260
but then what ends up happening is the

527
00:21:23,570 --> 00:21:20,400
very

528
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:23,580
means by which they hope to confirm

529
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:25,919
something gets messed with like

530
00:21:30,409 --> 00:21:28,080
precognitively in other words it seems

531
00:21:32,270 --> 00:21:30,419
like this intelligence knows what you're

532
00:21:34,130 --> 00:21:32,280
going to try to test before you even try

533
00:21:36,110 --> 00:21:34,140
to test it before you've even conceived

534
00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:36,120
of how you're going to try and test it

535
00:21:41,090 --> 00:21:38,820
that shows the level of precognition

536
00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:41,100
that this these other intelligences have

537
00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:44,940
which makes it seem like ridiculous and

538
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:47,880
since it's the word of the day absurd to

539
00:21:52,549 --> 00:21:50,159
think that you can reproduce this in a

540
00:21:55,490 --> 00:21:52,559
lab right it's just not that kind of

541
00:21:57,649 --> 00:21:55,500
phenomena and again this comes down to

542
00:21:59,210 --> 00:21:57,659
our assumptions about the nature of

543
00:22:02,450 --> 00:21:59,220
reality and our assumptions that we're

544
00:22:04,370 --> 00:22:02,460
at the top of the food chain and that

545
00:22:07,010 --> 00:22:04,380
everything else is inert dead matter

546
00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:07,020
that we can just you know manipulate the

547
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:09,240
way we want to in lab situations and it

548
00:22:14,510 --> 00:22:12,720
just doesn't work that way mm-hmm

549
00:22:15,950 --> 00:22:14,520
well let's uh let's break it down let's

550
00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:15,960
kind of Step through the definition a

551
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:17,220
little bit because I think it is a good

552
00:22:23,149 --> 00:22:21,360
way to unpack some of the aspects uh of

553
00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:23,159
high strangeness so

554
00:22:28,430 --> 00:22:25,919
um let's start out with the peculiar and

555
00:22:33,529 --> 00:22:28,440
as I've been thinking about

556
00:22:37,310 --> 00:22:33,539
this word I'm gonna reference back to

557
00:22:39,529 --> 00:22:37,320
my my Christian upbringing uh which to

558
00:22:42,350 --> 00:22:39,539
me didn't seem peculiar at all I was

559
00:22:44,270 --> 00:22:42,360
born into the church and that's the sort

560
00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:44,280
of error in which I breathed for a very

561
00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:46,500
long time but what became peculiar to me

562
00:22:50,570 --> 00:22:48,780
when I first started having an awareness

563
00:22:51,890 --> 00:22:50,580
of The Wider world is that there were

564
00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:51,900
other people

565
00:22:57,169 --> 00:22:54,480
who went to other churches in the

566
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:57,179
community that I grew up in so I found

567
00:23:02,090 --> 00:22:59,039
that like strange why why is not

568
00:23:04,909 --> 00:23:02,100
everyone going to this one Church uh

569
00:23:07,610 --> 00:23:04,919
that I have found to be you know the

570
00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:07,620
most important place to orient my life

571
00:23:12,289 --> 00:23:09,900
around so that that that little sort of

572
00:23:14,930 --> 00:23:12,299
subtlety uh at least in my own

573
00:23:17,330 --> 00:23:14,940
experience was was quite strange

574
00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:17,340
and uh it's funny how that one little

575
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:20,880
thing ends up sort of opening up the

576
00:23:25,610 --> 00:23:23,039
crack to some some larger you know

577
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:25,620
issues later on which we can touch on in

578
00:23:28,669 --> 00:23:26,880
a minute

579
00:23:30,610 --> 00:23:28,679
um but that that's just one example and

580
00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:30,620
I wanted to use that because it is

581
00:23:34,610 --> 00:23:32,820
something that maybe some folks can

582
00:23:38,149 --> 00:23:34,620
relate to that doesn't have anything to

583
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:38,159
do with uh you know kind of a UFO

584
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:40,080
experience or something paranormal but

585
00:23:44,510 --> 00:23:41,760
it speaks to the fact that there are

586
00:23:47,390 --> 00:23:44,520
we're all born into a world not of our

587
00:23:51,230 --> 00:23:47,400
choosing we we take a lot of things to

588
00:23:54,049 --> 00:23:51,240
be Givens in our childhood that that we

589
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:54,059
later find out to be aren't Givens they

590
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:56,640
aren't Norms they're just

591
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,799
little things that we have been told are

592
00:24:03,649 --> 00:24:00,240
the way things are

593
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:03,659
and uh it's nice that we actually

594
00:24:09,169 --> 00:24:06,240
everyone has that experience it's a very

595
00:24:11,270 --> 00:24:09,179
common denominator so as we grow we

596
00:24:13,789 --> 00:24:11,280
realize that the world is not as it

597
00:24:15,890 --> 00:24:13,799
seemed it's not as encapsulated in our

598
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:15,900
in our family unit and our family values

599
00:24:21,529 --> 00:24:18,480
as we as we were taught to or at least

600
00:24:24,169 --> 00:24:21,539
we came to assume and so that's a way

601
00:24:26,210 --> 00:24:24,179
that I think about this uh not being a

602
00:24:28,370 --> 00:24:26,220
direct experiencer of of anything that

603
00:24:29,470 --> 00:24:28,380
is uh what we might call classically

604
00:24:32,149 --> 00:24:29,480
strange

605
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:32,159
but I think it is a good reference point

606
00:24:36,830 --> 00:24:34,320
for everyone at least to think about

607
00:24:39,289 --> 00:24:36,840
this from a broader context when you

608
00:24:41,450 --> 00:24:39,299
think about peculiar uh what are some

609
00:24:43,130 --> 00:24:41,460
sort of things that come to mind for you

610
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:43,140
and your experience

611
00:24:47,270 --> 00:24:44,880
well when I think about that word like

612
00:24:49,010 --> 00:24:47,280
you say it's it's the least uh offensive

613
00:24:50,450 --> 00:24:49,020
the least of a stretch in terms of

614
00:24:51,890 --> 00:24:50,460
people's

615
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:51,900
generally people have had that

616
00:24:55,610 --> 00:24:53,760
experience right and

617
00:24:57,710 --> 00:24:55,620
when I think about that in the UFO

618
00:24:59,210 --> 00:24:57,720
phenomenon

619
00:25:02,870 --> 00:24:59,220
um I think

620
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:02,880
that sort of aligns with

621
00:25:08,510 --> 00:25:05,520
when you experience elements that don't

622
00:25:11,570 --> 00:25:08,520
seem to fit with the narrative you had

623
00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:11,580
sort of held about what this is so it's

624
00:25:16,190 --> 00:25:13,140
not yet at the level where it questions

625
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:16,200
you know your model of reality it's not

626
00:25:20,990 --> 00:25:18,240
at the level where it makes you go how

627
00:25:23,870 --> 00:25:21,000
does that even make sense but it is

628
00:25:25,549 --> 00:25:23,880
an element of that's strange if this is

629
00:25:28,549 --> 00:25:25,559
the case then why that you know it's

630
00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:28,559
just sort of that you know mental that

631
00:25:31,070 --> 00:25:29,940
you do kind of thing like that's that's

632
00:26:05,870 --> 00:25:31,080
a

633
00:26:07,549 --> 00:26:05,880
first level

634
00:26:09,769 --> 00:26:07,559
of strangeness where it hasn't got

635
00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:09,779
really weird yet but it's enough to make

636
00:26:14,690 --> 00:26:11,480
you begin to question

637
00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:14,700
your uh prevailing understanding of what

638
00:26:18,830 --> 00:26:16,620
this is

639
00:26:21,529 --> 00:26:18,840
I I was listening to a recent interview

640
00:26:26,210 --> 00:26:21,539
with valet where he was recounting

641
00:26:27,710 --> 00:26:26,220
similarities in uh the Trinity event and

642
00:26:32,269 --> 00:26:27,720
the Socorro

643
00:26:34,970 --> 00:26:32,279
experience and he he brought up the uh

644
00:26:36,649 --> 00:26:34,980
that the the beings and the craft they

645
00:26:38,690 --> 00:26:36,659
they had the suits on and everything but

646
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:38,700
there was no you know sort of what we

647
00:26:41,870 --> 00:26:40,080
would consider to be a breathing

648
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:41,880
apparatus or they didn't have any

649
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:44,159
trouble operating within our atmosphere

650
00:26:46,909 --> 00:26:45,120
which is something you would

651
00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:46,919
traditionally at least from our

652
00:26:51,409 --> 00:26:48,900
scientific understanding think they

653
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:51,419
might need if they were from some other

654
00:26:57,190 --> 00:26:55,020
planet some other atmosphere uh so it's

655
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:57,200
it's this uh

656
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:00,960
familiarity that humanoid form but and

657
00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:02,880
the challenging the assumptions that

658
00:27:08,269 --> 00:27:06,000
that you might bring to the experience

659
00:27:11,330 --> 00:27:08,279
yeah indeed when we're brought up with

660
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:11,340
this evolutionary model of biology and

661
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:14,640
we assume that beings are heavily

662
00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:17,279
adapted to the environment they were

663
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:20,580
formed in and evolved in and you know

664
00:27:25,730 --> 00:27:23,760
had multiple generations of then yeah we

665
00:27:28,850 --> 00:27:25,740
were taught I remember in even in

666
00:27:30,529 --> 00:27:28,860
science fiction the norm was that the

667
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:30,539
weirder you can get in terms of this

668
00:27:35,390 --> 00:27:32,100
thing looks so bizarre I didn't even

669
00:27:37,490 --> 00:27:35,400
recognize it as life you know or and uh

670
00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:37,500
you know the the environment it existed

671
00:27:40,730 --> 00:27:38,820
in was so different that it's you know

672
00:27:42,529 --> 00:27:40,740
like it's like breathing sulfur right or

673
00:27:44,510 --> 00:27:42,539
something like that or you know it

674
00:27:46,970 --> 00:27:44,520
drinks acid for lunch kind of thing yeah

675
00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:46,980
so it's sort of like the shocking sci-fi

676
00:27:51,710 --> 00:27:48,720
thing was like they're so different than

677
00:27:53,450 --> 00:27:51,720
us and then like you say what we have is

678
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:53,460
these experiences of these humanoid

679
00:27:58,669 --> 00:27:56,880
bipedal beings sometimes things you know

680
00:28:00,110 --> 00:27:58,679
beings that look completely human right

681
00:28:01,909 --> 00:28:00,120
sometimes there's subtle differences

682
00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:01,919
other times they look no different than

683
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:03,659
your neighbor

684
00:28:08,750 --> 00:28:06,240
which doesn't fit with our understanding

685
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:08,760
not only of sci-fi but even

686
00:28:15,950 --> 00:28:11,039
you know what we were taught about how

687
00:28:18,110 --> 00:28:15,960
our shape is completely arbitrarily uh

688
00:28:19,730 --> 00:28:18,120
or you know it's it's dependent on where

689
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:19,740
you're where you're born but more

690
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:21,120
importantly where your ancestors were

691
00:28:24,529 --> 00:28:21,840
born

692
00:28:26,210 --> 00:28:24,539
and you can't separate your form from

693
00:28:27,529 --> 00:28:26,220
the environment in which you you live

694
00:28:30,289 --> 00:28:27,539
and you exist

695
00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:30,299
so that that's you know

696
00:28:33,730 --> 00:28:32,760
something I think about uh with those

697
00:28:37,130 --> 00:28:33,740
elements

698
00:28:39,890 --> 00:28:37,140
well where would you put uh

699
00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:39,900
synchronicity in in the scale here would

700
00:28:42,529 --> 00:28:41,580
you consider that I mean it may depend

701
00:28:49,390 --> 00:28:42,539
on

702
00:28:51,470 --> 00:28:49,400
but I I think of kind of the uh

703
00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:51,480
synchronicities we're all accustomed to

704
00:28:57,049 --> 00:28:55,620
uh that uh you you learn a new word and

705
00:28:58,789 --> 00:28:57,059
then all of a sudden you're seeing it

706
00:29:01,310 --> 00:28:58,799
everywhere and it's not a not a

707
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:01,320
averagely used it's not a word you would

708
00:29:04,610 --> 00:29:02,880
normally run across it's a very strange

709
00:29:06,830 --> 00:29:04,620
word now you're seeing it pop up all

710
00:29:10,010 --> 00:29:06,840
over the place uh that strikes me as

711
00:29:12,169 --> 00:29:10,020
peculiar uh so what what do you think

712
00:29:13,549 --> 00:29:12,179
about that what do you put synchronicity

713
00:29:16,669 --> 00:29:13,559
here

714
00:29:19,669 --> 00:29:16,679
that is a tricky one because number one

715
00:29:21,529 --> 00:29:19,679
as I've come across recently people have

716
00:29:22,490 --> 00:29:21,539
different working understandings of that

717
00:29:25,549 --> 00:29:22,500
word

718
00:29:27,289 --> 00:29:25,559
I think traditionally

719
00:29:28,850 --> 00:29:27,299
you know in conventional mainstream

720
00:29:32,090 --> 00:29:28,860
culture you're you're taught that is

721
00:29:37,010 --> 00:29:34,250
meaningless right it's just

722
00:29:37,850 --> 00:29:37,020
two events that maybe are connected in

723
00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:37,860
your

724
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:40,320
thinking about them so they they hold

725
00:29:43,310 --> 00:29:42,480
some some level of significance to you

726
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:43,320
but

727
00:29:46,789 --> 00:29:45,120
there's no implication beyond that

728
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,799
basically right

729
00:29:49,850 --> 00:29:48,480
um and then you have the far other end

730
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:49,860
of the spectrum

731
00:29:54,230 --> 00:29:51,600
which is where I ended up and people

732
00:29:55,789 --> 00:29:54,240
like Carl Jung ended up here too that

733
00:29:57,470 --> 00:29:55,799
actually synchronicity is saying

734
00:30:00,590 --> 00:29:57,480
something about the underlying nature of

735
00:30:03,169 --> 00:30:00,600
reality itself and that what we

736
00:30:07,010 --> 00:30:03,179
experienced superficially

737
00:30:10,610 --> 00:30:07,020
as synchronicity is actually a residue

738
00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:10,620
or a byproduct or a derivative of the

739
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:13,279
actual structure and movement of reality

740
00:30:18,889 --> 00:30:16,320
in the Subterranean regions that we

741
00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:18,899
don't experience directly but we see the

742
00:30:22,610 --> 00:30:20,460
the after effects of the kind of way

743
00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:22,620
that you see a flag moving which tells

744
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:24,960
you that wind is there right in the same

745
00:30:29,810 --> 00:30:27,360
way synchronicity is the sign that we

746
00:30:31,850 --> 00:30:29,820
see on The Superficial level telling us

747
00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:31,860
that something is moving in the

748
00:30:35,769 --> 00:30:34,740
Subterranean meaning making

749
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:35,779
um

750
00:30:40,549 --> 00:30:39,120
Machinery or organic structure of

751
00:30:43,970 --> 00:30:40,559
reality itself

752
00:30:46,130 --> 00:30:43,980
so I think that synchronicity is in some

753
00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:46,140
ways people's on-ramp to to high

754
00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:47,460
strangeness

755
00:30:51,889 --> 00:30:49,860
I do hear sometimes people saying

756
00:30:53,330 --> 00:30:51,899
and I sometimes get caught off guard by

757
00:30:55,490 --> 00:30:53,340
this because I don't personally have

758
00:30:57,409 --> 00:30:55,500
this experience but I seem to come

759
00:30:59,149 --> 00:30:57,419
across a lot of people who say they

760
00:31:01,130 --> 00:30:59,159
started paying attention to things and

761
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:01,140
paying attention to synchronicity and

762
00:31:04,370 --> 00:31:02,880
the next thing they knew they were like

763
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:04,380
so deep down the rabbit hole they

764
00:31:07,789 --> 00:31:06,240
wondered if they'd like fooled

765
00:31:09,049 --> 00:31:07,799
themselves and they were like reading

766
00:31:10,610 --> 00:31:09,059
into things that weren't really there

767
00:31:12,590 --> 00:31:10,620
right so you hear that quite often too

768
00:31:14,990 --> 00:31:12,600
that people start believing that the

769
00:31:17,690 --> 00:31:15,000
universities aren't the university the

770
00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:17,700
universe is talking to them through

771
00:31:21,769 --> 00:31:20,340
everything right like you know you had a

772
00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:21,779
particular bowel movement what does that

773
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:24,120
mean right you know my I dropped my pen

774
00:31:27,409 --> 00:31:26,159
what is that what is what's the universe

775
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:27,419
trying to tell me

776
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:30,000
I personally don't have that difficulty

777
00:31:34,610 --> 00:31:32,520
like for me I do experience

778
00:31:37,130 --> 00:31:34,620
synchronicity

779
00:31:39,409 --> 00:31:37,140
um but to me it's always it has a again

780
00:31:42,110 --> 00:31:39,419
this a qualitative nature to it right

781
00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:42,120
it's not just about saying this happened

782
00:31:45,710 --> 00:31:43,740
then this happened and to me that's

783
00:31:47,149 --> 00:31:45,720
synchronistic it's about the the

784
00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:47,159
qualitative

785
00:31:51,529 --> 00:31:49,500
element of it that that there's this way

786
00:31:54,649 --> 00:31:51,539
that it impacts your Consciousness that

787
00:31:57,649 --> 00:31:54,659
says aha there's something here that's

788
00:32:00,529 --> 00:31:57,659
that's like a residue of some deeper

789
00:32:03,049 --> 00:32:00,539
movement in reality which is ultimately

790
00:32:05,149 --> 00:32:03,059
Consciousness so

791
00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:05,159
yeah I think that synchronicity is

792
00:32:09,470 --> 00:32:07,260
absolutely in this game right it's part

793
00:32:12,049 --> 00:32:09,480
of the the same general topic and this

794
00:32:13,610 --> 00:32:12,059
is often an on-ramp for people before

795
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:13,620
they've even experienced maybe

796
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:15,600
strangeness with the UFO phenomenon

797
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:17,760
maybe they've never had a sighting or

798
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,600
had contact with it being but they do

799
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:23,279
um begin to experience these elements of

800
00:32:28,010 --> 00:32:25,620
synchronicity that that often is the the

801
00:32:29,889 --> 00:32:28,020
first stage in this deep dive down the

802
00:32:32,149 --> 00:32:29,899
rabbit hole

803
00:32:34,389 --> 00:32:32,159
well let's talk a little bit about the

804
00:32:38,450 --> 00:32:34,399
bazaar uh

805
00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:38,460
ramping this up just a tad here so I'll

806
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:41,340
give an anecdote um from my from my

807
00:32:47,090 --> 00:32:44,399
experience so I uh

808
00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:47,100
I I'm I'm not a frequent dreamer I I'm

809
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:48,840
sure I am dreaming every night but I

810
00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:52,320
don't remember them quite often uh and

811
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:55,140
when I was in college

812
00:33:01,070 --> 00:32:58,559
uh I had what what I think was probably

813
00:33:04,130 --> 00:33:01,080
if not my only but one of maybe a very

814
00:33:07,070 --> 00:33:04,140
small number of lucid dreams

815
00:33:09,070 --> 00:33:07,080
um I was between terms I was uh actually

816
00:33:12,289 --> 00:33:09,080
taking some summer classes

817
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:12,299
and uh I was

818
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:14,880
separated from my girlfriend at the time

819
00:33:19,970 --> 00:33:17,039
this was early on in my college Years

820
00:33:21,649 --> 00:33:19,980
and in this dream

821
00:33:25,009 --> 00:33:21,659
I

822
00:33:26,690 --> 00:33:25,019
transported to the top of the world

823
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:26,700
that's the best way I can describe it

824
00:33:32,029 --> 00:33:29,279
it's a very strange way that dreams can

825
00:33:33,889 --> 00:33:32,039
make you think where you are but I just

826
00:33:36,769 --> 00:33:33,899
knew it was the top of the world it was

827
00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:36,779
like I was uh almost like I was visiting

828
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:40,140
like uh Superman's Crystal uh

829
00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:42,000
headquarters or whatever you know sort

830
00:33:46,009 --> 00:33:44,640
of snowy landscape and whatnot and there

831
00:33:50,029 --> 00:33:46,019
was an old

832
00:33:53,389 --> 00:33:50,039
man there who

833
00:33:57,409 --> 00:33:53,399
either I equated to God or

834
00:34:00,830 --> 00:33:57,419
had that kind of god-like wisdom that

835
00:34:02,389 --> 00:34:00,840
the sort of stereotypical God figure uh

836
00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:02,399
even though I was already at the point

837
00:34:07,730 --> 00:34:04,740
where I knew God wasn't you know a man

838
00:34:10,909 --> 00:34:07,740
or a bearded person in the sky but in my

839
00:34:13,849 --> 00:34:10,919
dream this is what it felt like and he

840
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:13,859
said to me he said well it's um

841
00:34:18,770 --> 00:34:16,320
it's the end of the world it's the end

842
00:34:20,869 --> 00:34:18,780
of the world is finally here it's okay

843
00:34:24,169 --> 00:34:20,879
interesting and then I was instantly

844
00:34:27,230 --> 00:34:24,179
transported to this uh

845
00:34:30,649 --> 00:34:27,240
Beach this Coastal like I was in Florida

846
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:30,659
somewhere but um I was inside of a

847
00:34:36,770 --> 00:34:34,560
multi-storied condo that had been uh

848
00:34:40,310 --> 00:34:36,780
shorn in half so basically I'm standing

849
00:34:42,290 --> 00:34:40,320
in a in a condo room but I instead of a

850
00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:42,300
window like the building is cut in half

851
00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:44,639
and I'm looking at the ocean and I'm

852
00:34:50,210 --> 00:34:47,460
looking down the beach uh and and it's

853
00:34:51,710 --> 00:34:50,220
just pure Devastation along the beach

854
00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:51,720
like uh

855
00:34:58,130 --> 00:34:54,960
very apocalyptic other buildings either

856
00:35:00,890 --> 00:34:58,140
utterly destroyed or are also shorn in

857
00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:00,900
half sky was darkened

858
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:02,760
um and then I was transported to the

859
00:35:05,810 --> 00:35:04,560
beach itself when I was on the beach

860
00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:05,820
itself

861
00:35:11,690 --> 00:35:07,920
the ocean

862
00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:11,700
was no longer there it had receded and I

863
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:13,140
really couldn't see

864
00:35:16,970 --> 00:35:15,359
where the water was and what was left

865
00:35:20,270 --> 00:35:16,980
was this

866
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:20,280
you know Barren ocean floor with these

867
00:35:26,990 --> 00:35:23,760
gigantic almost like Rusty

868
00:35:31,130 --> 00:35:27,000
will carcass ratings that were emerging

869
00:35:33,170 --> 00:35:31,140
in the seabed uh creating kind of a a

870
00:35:36,470 --> 00:35:33,180
tunnel

871
00:35:39,230 --> 00:35:36,480
into the depths of what once were the

872
00:35:43,010 --> 00:35:39,240
ocean and in the sky in the dark cloudy

873
00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:43,020
sky was was this gigantic swarm of of

874
00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:45,060
colored orbs

875
00:35:50,990 --> 00:35:48,960
just circular circulating and spinning

876
00:35:54,589 --> 00:35:51,000
and and at the time I knew nothing about

877
00:35:57,230 --> 00:35:54,599
orbs and the connection with orbs and

878
00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:57,240
UFOs none of that at all

879
00:36:01,550 --> 00:35:59,520
but I felt this compulsion to go down

880
00:36:04,730 --> 00:36:01,560
this tunnel like I was supposed to go

881
00:36:07,790 --> 00:36:04,740
down into this into this ring structure

882
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:07,800
uh you know into the abyss basically and

883
00:36:12,530 --> 00:36:10,560
so I'm starting to do that

884
00:36:15,170 --> 00:36:12,540
I hear this voice behind me basically

885
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,180
saying don't don't do that don't go you

886
00:36:19,730 --> 00:36:17,280
got to come back and so I turn around to

887
00:36:22,790 --> 00:36:19,740
look behind me and behind me

888
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:22,800
is my ex-girlfriend at the time and I'm

889
00:36:26,510 --> 00:36:24,480
looking at her and I'm like it's like I

890
00:36:28,609 --> 00:36:26,520
was like shook out of a stupor you know

891
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:28,619
just so like like the I was in a trance

892
00:36:32,990 --> 00:36:30,960
and I wasn't a trance anymore and I and

893
00:36:34,970 --> 00:36:33,000
I saw her and I was like oh my gosh like

894
00:36:36,890 --> 00:36:34,980
I I shouldn't I shouldn't go this is

895
00:36:42,470 --> 00:36:36,900
very bad I need to come back and I need

896
00:36:45,950 --> 00:36:42,480
to be with you so for me this was a like

897
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:45,960
a kind of a pivotal Moment In My Life

898
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:47,520
um because

899
00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:49,440
I had never had a dream like this I

900
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,200
never had a dream as as Vivid as this

901
00:36:57,230 --> 00:36:54,480
was it's actually a dream that I wrote

902
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:57,240
down in a journal like which I never

903
00:37:01,190 --> 00:36:59,040
really did I'm not a journalist a

904
00:37:03,050 --> 00:37:01,200
journaler and I've lost the journal

905
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:03,060
which really frustrates me I'd love to

906
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:04,320
go back and read it

907
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:06,720
but it it was one of those moments where

908
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:08,520
I I sort of was listening to my

909
00:37:11,870 --> 00:37:10,079
subconscious and it was saying to me

910
00:37:12,670 --> 00:37:11,880
like you you're supposed to be with this

911
00:37:15,170 --> 00:37:12,680
person

912
00:37:17,390 --> 00:37:15,180
and uh and and that's something I

913
00:37:19,250 --> 00:37:17,400
already knew before this dream really

914
00:37:22,750 --> 00:37:19,260
occurred but it was this affirmation of

915
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:22,760
what I already felt and uh

916
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:25,440
that believe it or not has like kind of

917
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:29,400
oriented a lot of my life I mean I I we

918
00:37:34,370 --> 00:37:31,680
got back together we got married we have

919
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:34,380
family and and I think about it I

920
00:37:37,310 --> 00:37:36,000
probably know not a week goes by where I

921
00:37:40,490 --> 00:37:37,320
don't think about that dream in some

922
00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:40,500
form of uh or another so you know truly

923
00:37:44,510 --> 00:37:42,480
weird uh for me

924
00:37:46,190 --> 00:37:44,520
um but a good example what I talked

925
00:37:49,130 --> 00:37:46,200
about earlier where this very strange

926
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:49,140
thing that isn't what we would point to

927
00:37:53,870 --> 00:37:50,960
is like a

928
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:53,880
something we can quantify in the way we

929
00:38:00,109 --> 00:37:56,640
want like to quantify uh our big life

930
00:38:02,810 --> 00:38:00,119
decisions but it absolutely has changed

931
00:38:05,089 --> 00:38:02,820
my life uh and and for the better so

932
00:38:06,770 --> 00:38:05,099
anyway that's a long preamble to this

933
00:38:08,690 --> 00:38:06,780
bizarre section but I think it's a good

934
00:38:10,609 --> 00:38:08,700
example of uh of what at least in my

935
00:38:13,130 --> 00:38:10,619
experience what we're talking about

936
00:38:15,710 --> 00:38:13,140
right and and what I hear in that is

937
00:38:19,390 --> 00:38:15,720
this sort of next level of strangeness

938
00:38:22,250 --> 00:38:19,400
right so peculiar is still fairly tame

939
00:38:24,650 --> 00:38:22,260
bizarre is much more extreme word right

940
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:24,660
connotatively

941
00:38:30,050 --> 00:38:27,440
um and really speaks to the the

942
00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:30,060
qualitatively different level of

943
00:38:32,829 --> 00:38:31,680
experience right is what I hear you

944
00:38:36,530 --> 00:38:32,839
saying in that

945
00:38:39,849 --> 00:38:38,750
where I would land a few of my

946
00:38:42,410 --> 00:38:39,859
experiences

947
00:38:45,230 --> 00:38:42,420
personally I don't think too many

948
00:38:46,970 --> 00:38:45,240
would really go into the Absurd I I

949
00:38:50,210 --> 00:38:46,980
definitely want us to touch on that

950
00:38:52,010 --> 00:38:50,220
because I think there are

951
00:38:53,810 --> 00:38:52,020
some elements there even where the

952
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:53,820
trickster phenomena comes in but we'll

953
00:38:58,130 --> 00:38:55,260
we'll save that one for when we get

954
00:39:00,109 --> 00:38:58,140
there but when I think about bizarre

955
00:39:02,329 --> 00:39:00,119
experiences

956
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:02,339
one is around

957
00:39:07,370 --> 00:39:05,280
my own personal actions right so you

958
00:39:08,810 --> 00:39:07,380
have interactions with some sort of

959
00:39:10,510 --> 00:39:08,820
Consciousness some sort of intelligence

960
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:10,520
that seems non-human or at least

961
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:14,400
non-conventionally human and you end up

962
00:39:17,810 --> 00:39:15,839
doing things that don't make any sense

963
00:39:19,970 --> 00:39:17,820
to you and I've experienced this

964
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,980
personally this is very again this is a

965
00:39:23,569 --> 00:39:21,359
calling card of the phenomenon right

966
00:39:26,450 --> 00:39:23,579
that I think for some people is

967
00:39:28,730 --> 00:39:26,460
extremely disturbing actually that that

968
00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:28,740
what we're saying is that some other

969
00:39:33,050 --> 00:39:30,780
intelligence is able to control your

970
00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:33,060
mind control your actions control your

971
00:39:38,329 --> 00:39:35,280
emotions right I I recently did a

972
00:39:40,010 --> 00:39:38,339
podcast on POC where

973
00:39:41,870 --> 00:39:40,020
you would see on a dime that if you're

974
00:39:44,530 --> 00:39:41,880
getting too upset they could just call

975
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:44,540
me right down right uh

976
00:39:49,370 --> 00:39:47,220
you find yourself walking into a

977
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:49,380
spaceship and getting up on a a table to

978
00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:52,320
be examined and their hypnotic

979
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:53,520
regressionist says why are you doing

980
00:39:56,530 --> 00:39:55,320
that and well well because I was told to

981
00:39:59,150 --> 00:39:56,540
and

982
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,160
but in real time you don't even have

983
00:40:02,569 --> 00:40:00,960
that conflict of why am I doing this

984
00:40:04,490 --> 00:40:02,579
you're because thoughts are just popping

985
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,500
into your mind and we're so used to

986
00:40:07,790 --> 00:40:06,000
thoughts being

987
00:40:09,530 --> 00:40:07,800
us being the owner of those thoughts

988
00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:09,540
right the originator of those thoughts

989
00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:11,400
the author of those thoughts that

990
00:40:15,050 --> 00:40:13,200
doesn't even occur to us that other

991
00:40:18,770 --> 00:40:15,060
intelligences could

992
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:18,780
interject these decision points in our

993
00:40:23,450 --> 00:40:21,599
very mentation process which is again

994
00:40:26,030 --> 00:40:23,460
very disturbing for people who have a

995
00:40:28,430 --> 00:40:26,040
really clear-cut notion of I'm this

996
00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:28,440
you're that there's no crossover right

997
00:40:32,690 --> 00:40:30,540
and what this phenomenon does is say oh

998
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:32,700
there's plenty of crossover and don't be

999
00:40:36,890 --> 00:40:34,800
so sure about your definition of who you

1000
00:40:38,870 --> 00:40:36,900
are and even when you

1001
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:38,880
describe your situation with that lucid

1002
00:40:45,470 --> 00:40:42,000
dream I think about that you know like

1003
00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:45,480
we have access to much larger portions

1004
00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:47,880
of ourselves than we usually interact

1005
00:40:52,069 --> 00:40:49,440
with and work with

1006
00:40:54,470 --> 00:40:52,079
and it's through things like dreams and

1007
00:40:56,810 --> 00:40:54,480
astral travel and psychedelic Journeys

1008
00:40:59,210 --> 00:40:56,820
that we experience those broader parts

1009
00:41:01,250 --> 00:40:59,220
of ourselves right so before we even get

1010
00:41:05,270 --> 00:41:01,260
to the notion of these others

1011
00:41:07,550 --> 00:41:05,280
there's a much you know a selective you

1012
00:41:10,609 --> 00:41:07,560
know the proverbial Iceberg right the

1013
00:41:12,829 --> 00:41:10,619
part below the water is much more

1014
00:41:15,530 --> 00:41:12,839
extensive and substantial than what we

1015
00:41:17,810 --> 00:41:15,540
usually see and interact with and we can

1016
00:41:21,650 --> 00:41:17,820
experience that in dreams

1017
00:41:24,050 --> 00:41:21,660
but getting back to my point about how

1018
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:24,060
behavior is determined by these other

1019
00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:26,880
intelligences sometimes human behavior I

1020
00:41:31,069 --> 00:41:28,800
had a couple experiences of that where I

1021
00:41:34,069 --> 00:41:31,079
look back and I go wow that's just I I

1022
00:41:35,450 --> 00:41:34,079
cannot for the life of me determine why

1023
00:41:37,849 --> 00:41:35,460
I would have done that it just doesn't

1024
00:41:40,490 --> 00:41:37,859
make any sense based on my personality

1025
00:41:42,050 --> 00:41:40,500
my history the circumstances and yet

1026
00:41:43,069 --> 00:41:42,060
it's exactly what happened and I think

1027
00:41:45,170 --> 00:41:43,079
when you've

1028
00:41:46,310 --> 00:41:45,180
experienced that personally it's a very

1029
00:41:48,410 --> 00:41:46,320
different level

1030
00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:48,420
of just hitting home in terms of how

1031
00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:50,460
much this really does happen

1032
00:41:54,290 --> 00:41:52,079
because you know yourself you think you

1033
00:41:55,550 --> 00:41:54,300
know yourself right and you live a

1034
00:41:56,990 --> 00:41:55,560
certain number of decades and you've

1035
00:41:59,329 --> 00:41:57,000
always made decisions a certain way and

1036
00:42:01,490 --> 00:41:59,339
suddenly you find yourself acting in

1037
00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:01,500
anomalous ways right so for for instance

1038
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:04,320
one I'll touch on really quickly uh I've

1039
00:42:10,250 --> 00:42:06,720
talked about it elsewhere

1040
00:42:13,609 --> 00:42:10,260
um when my wife at the time was pregnant

1041
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:13,619
with uh our son which is our second

1042
00:42:19,490 --> 00:42:17,280
child in a hotel this humanoid female

1043
00:42:22,310 --> 00:42:19,500
being appeared in the middle of the

1044
00:42:24,650 --> 00:42:22,320
night or early morning hours and I got

1045
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:24,660
up and walked towards this being the

1046
00:42:30,109 --> 00:42:26,400
being then proceeded to walk through the

1047
00:42:32,089 --> 00:42:30,119
wall then came back outside the wall and

1048
00:42:33,950 --> 00:42:32,099
what's really strange is and again this

1049
00:42:35,390 --> 00:42:33,960
is the first level of strangeness asyla

1050
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:35,400
was like okay yeah I guess I'll go back

1051
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:36,960
to sleep now that seems like the logical

1052
00:42:41,089 --> 00:42:38,640
thing to do that's what people do right

1053
00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:41,099
after they see a humanoid entity just if

1054
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:42,060
you're in their room and walk through

1055
00:42:46,790 --> 00:42:44,400
while they go back to sleep right I mean

1056
00:42:49,970 --> 00:42:46,800
that's what I did and uh

1057
00:42:51,410 --> 00:42:49,980
again thankfully my wife at the time you

1058
00:42:53,390 --> 00:42:51,420
know shook me out of my stupor and said

1059
00:42:55,010 --> 00:42:53,400
we need to talk about this are you not

1060
00:42:56,750 --> 00:42:55,020
thinking about what just happened and it

1061
00:42:58,430 --> 00:42:56,760
kind of snapped me out of that

1062
00:43:00,770 --> 00:42:58,440
trance-like state and we had a

1063
00:43:02,690 --> 00:43:00,780
conversation and ended up not staying at

1064
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:02,700
the hotel for the continental breakfast

1065
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,800
we got out of there as fast as we could

1066
00:43:08,690 --> 00:43:06,480
and this was before I really had a

1067
00:43:10,250 --> 00:43:08,700
strong understanding of how that kind of

1068
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:10,260
strangeness was associated with this

1069
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:12,720
phenomenon like I didn't think aliens or

1070
00:43:16,690 --> 00:43:14,880
UFOs or non-human intelligence I just

1071
00:43:19,730 --> 00:43:16,700
didn't know what to make of it really

1072
00:43:21,770 --> 00:43:19,740
but if I hadn't been you know shaken out

1073
00:43:23,930 --> 00:43:21,780
of my stupor I probably would have gone

1074
00:43:25,130 --> 00:43:23,940
to sleep and and just assumed it was a

1075
00:43:27,710 --> 00:43:25,140
dream

1076
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:27,720
or maybe forgotten about it all together

1077
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:30,180
right uh so I and I think that happens

1078
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:32,160
to a lot of people by the way so that

1079
00:43:36,050 --> 00:43:34,319
that was an example where my behavior

1080
00:43:37,010 --> 00:43:36,060
just didn't make any sense to me and I

1081
00:43:39,050 --> 00:43:37,020
don't think it would make sense to

1082
00:43:40,849 --> 00:43:39,060
anyone right I mean you would think that

1083
00:43:43,790 --> 00:43:40,859
you'd be have adrenaline shooting

1084
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:43,800
through your body you would be you know

1085
00:43:49,309 --> 00:43:47,760
I don't know screaming or yeah you know

1086
00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:49,319
hightailing out there as fast as you

1087
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:51,480
could it's called the front desk right

1088
00:43:56,750 --> 00:43:54,480
right exactly exactly room service yeah

1089
00:43:59,630 --> 00:43:56,760
well can you talk about the entity

1090
00:44:01,849 --> 00:43:59,640
um yeah so and I have one more I'll

1091
00:44:03,950 --> 00:44:01,859
quickly share too that happened more

1092
00:44:05,470 --> 00:44:03,960
recently just a few years ago since I've

1093
00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:05,480
lived here in North Carolina

1094
00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:11,160
where there was one time where we were

1095
00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:13,200
trying to induce contact but through

1096
00:44:17,450 --> 00:44:15,300
kind of a shamanic kind of experience so

1097
00:44:19,250 --> 00:44:17,460
we had a big mother Drummond we're doing

1098
00:44:21,530 --> 00:44:19,260
kind of shamanic drumming and and

1099
00:44:24,589 --> 00:44:21,540
inviting the presence of benevolent

1100
00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:24,599
others and what ended up happening was

1101
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:26,460
within about half an hour

1102
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:30,960
this huge sound came over the house like

1103
00:44:35,210 --> 00:44:32,400
it was it's really hard to describe

1104
00:44:37,609 --> 00:44:35,220
because it was a deep humming sound

1105
00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:37,619
it wasn't like a passing jet that gets

1106
00:44:43,370 --> 00:44:40,020
you know slowly louder and then recedes

1107
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:43,380
it was just a a consistent really loud

1108
00:44:50,089 --> 00:44:47,760
hum immense hum over the entire house

1109
00:44:52,430 --> 00:44:50,099
but what's weird is we just all walked

1110
00:44:55,250 --> 00:44:52,440
around the three of us right in the

1111
00:44:57,230 --> 00:44:55,260
house kind of ignoring what was going on

1112
00:44:58,430 --> 00:44:57,240
not even talking about it amongst

1113
00:45:00,589 --> 00:44:58,440
ourselves we didn't talk about it till

1114
00:45:01,609 --> 00:45:00,599
the next day right the next day we're

1115
00:45:06,410 --> 00:45:01,619
like

1116
00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:06,420
yeah let's let's talk about this and it

1117
00:45:11,329 --> 00:45:09,240
brought us back into our consciousness

1118
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:11,339
so that didn't make any sense to me I

1119
00:45:15,410 --> 00:45:13,200
didn't I didn't go outside to look right

1120
00:45:17,390 --> 00:45:15,420
because now I think there might have

1121
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:17,400
been a giant craft above the house right

1122
00:45:21,589 --> 00:45:19,920
but so the logical thing to do is to get

1123
00:45:25,069 --> 00:45:21,599
out you know outside and take a look

1124
00:45:28,130 --> 00:45:25,079
right I didn't I I think part of me when

1125
00:45:30,170 --> 00:45:28,140
I reflect on it was afraid I think there

1126
00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:30,180
was a part of me that was like I don't

1127
00:45:34,190 --> 00:45:31,520
want to have to deal with this right now

1128
00:45:36,890 --> 00:45:34,200
uh I know I part some part of being you

1129
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:36,900
that I kind of initiated the contact but

1130
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:38,880
I didn't think it would show up like

1131
00:45:45,170 --> 00:45:42,720
that right so I I was partly

1132
00:45:46,609 --> 00:45:45,180
feeling that but mostly the rest of it

1133
00:45:48,650 --> 00:45:46,619
just doesn't make any sense to me it's

1134
00:45:50,690 --> 00:45:48,660
just bizarre like even though I would

1135
00:45:52,069 --> 00:45:50,700
feel some fear I would at least want to

1136
00:45:53,390 --> 00:45:52,079
talk about it with the people that are

1137
00:45:55,609 --> 00:45:53,400
with me that are experiencing it and yet

1138
00:45:56,870 --> 00:45:55,619
we didn't right and you you hear cases

1139
00:45:58,910 --> 00:45:56,880
like that where

1140
00:46:02,150 --> 00:45:58,920
I remember in in one case I covered on

1141
00:46:04,010 --> 00:46:02,160
POC where Terry Lovelace and his friend

1142
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:04,020
right had this experience with this

1143
00:46:08,329 --> 00:46:06,720
black triangle and being abducted and

1144
00:46:10,849 --> 00:46:08,339
when they were driving back they didn't

1145
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:10,859
talk about it they'd both been abducted

1146
00:46:14,569 --> 00:46:12,480
but they did not talk about it the

1147
00:46:17,089 --> 00:46:14,579
entire Journey back and it wasn't until

1148
00:46:19,069 --> 00:46:17,099
months later even when the military is

1149
00:46:20,569 --> 00:46:19,079
trying to keep them apart that they kind

1150
00:46:22,910 --> 00:46:20,579
of said that really happened didn't it

1151
00:46:24,650 --> 00:46:22,920
you know and it's like very very strange

1152
00:46:26,510 --> 00:46:24,660
Behavior so it's similar to that

1153
00:46:27,950 --> 00:46:26,520
experience there where it just the fact

1154
00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:27,960
that we didn't talk about it the fact

1155
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:29,520
that I didn't go outside none of that

1156
00:46:34,430 --> 00:46:31,520
makes sense to me it's extremely bizarre

1157
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:34,440
verging on the Absurd right

1158
00:46:37,309 --> 00:46:35,280
um

1159
00:46:41,230 --> 00:46:37,319
and And yet when it happens to you

1160
00:46:43,790 --> 00:46:41,240
personally you you have this

1161
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:43,800
disjointed experience right you have

1162
00:46:47,809 --> 00:46:45,839
this experience where you know things

1163
00:46:49,609 --> 00:46:47,819
rolled out a certain way but how they

1164
00:46:51,530 --> 00:46:49,619
roll that doesn't make any sense based

1165
00:46:56,569 --> 00:46:51,540
on your understanding of who you are and

1166
00:47:02,270 --> 00:46:59,270
they they're like these almost like

1167
00:47:09,609 --> 00:47:02,280
fulcrum moments right where it's uh your

1168
00:47:13,849 --> 00:47:11,809
intersection right where you're

1169
00:47:15,829 --> 00:47:13,859
confronted with this this this complete

1170
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:15,839
abnormality and and then you have to

1171
00:47:18,170 --> 00:47:17,040
make you have to do it you have to do

1172
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:18,180
something with it or not do something

1173
00:47:22,430 --> 00:47:20,640
with it uh but you can't be the same

1174
00:47:24,530 --> 00:47:22,440
person you were before that you're going

1175
00:47:27,230 --> 00:47:24,540
to be after

1176
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:27,240
so it's it's almost like a chapter

1177
00:47:32,510 --> 00:47:30,240
starting uh that you have to

1178
00:47:35,390 --> 00:47:32,520
wrestle with I don't know that

1179
00:47:37,069 --> 00:47:35,400
it there's so many times in in life that

1180
00:47:39,230 --> 00:47:37,079
are like that

1181
00:47:40,490 --> 00:47:39,240
um at least in looking back maybe

1182
00:47:44,270 --> 00:47:40,500
sometimes they become a little bit

1183
00:47:46,670 --> 00:47:44,280
clearer and it's it's rare maybe this is

1184
00:47:49,370 --> 00:47:46,680
one of the qualities of the bizarre that

1185
00:47:51,950 --> 00:47:49,380
it not only is clear there was a there's

1186
00:47:54,829 --> 00:47:51,960
a change but you notice that in that

1187
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,839
time as well uh it's as being very

1188
00:47:58,370 --> 00:47:56,640
profound

1189
00:48:01,210 --> 00:47:58,380
um

1190
00:48:04,190 --> 00:48:01,220
well what about I know we we

1191
00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:04,200
talk about difficult to kind of pinpoint

1192
00:48:09,890 --> 00:48:07,640
some utterly absurd examples but uh

1193
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:09,900
you know I don't know if you have any in

1194
00:48:13,730 --> 00:48:11,760
your own experience but I'm sure we

1195
00:48:15,650 --> 00:48:13,740
could point to some in you know in the

1196
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:15,660
in the literature we've thought about it

1197
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:17,280
but what do you think about here when

1198
00:48:20,329 --> 00:48:18,720
you're when you're thinking about the

1199
00:48:22,309 --> 00:48:20,339
utterly absurd aspect of high

1200
00:48:24,050 --> 00:48:22,319
strangeness

1201
00:48:26,510 --> 00:48:24,060
yeah interestingly I think that that

1202
00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:26,520
term obviously is

1203
00:48:31,490 --> 00:48:28,800
how we apply it is

1204
00:48:33,710 --> 00:48:31,500
based on our

1205
00:48:35,150 --> 00:48:33,720
framework of what is normal right so

1206
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:35,160
once we've established what's normative

1207
00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:37,920
then from there we say well if it falls

1208
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:40,680
a little bit outside that it's peculiar

1209
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:42,240
actually if it still Falls within it but

1210
00:48:46,490 --> 00:48:44,160
kind of an outlier that's peculiar

1211
00:48:49,069 --> 00:48:46,500
bizarre is like it's really Sitting On

1212
00:48:51,589 --> 00:48:49,079
the Border absurd is I don't know how to

1213
00:48:53,569 --> 00:48:51,599
make any sense of this right so

1214
00:48:56,870 --> 00:48:53,579
I think again when people try to wrestle

1215
00:48:59,809 --> 00:48:56,880
with the level of control that some of

1216
00:49:03,050 --> 00:48:59,819
these others are able to wield

1217
00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:03,060
it it nears that at least if you're very

1218
00:49:06,050 --> 00:49:05,040
wetted to your conception of reality for

1219
00:49:07,730 --> 00:49:06,060
instance

1220
00:49:09,470 --> 00:49:07,740
it doesn't make any sense to people it

1221
00:49:12,050 --> 00:49:09,480
seems absurd to people that they could

1222
00:49:17,089 --> 00:49:14,230
you know show up above an interstate

1223
00:49:19,370 --> 00:49:17,099
where two people in a car will see this

1224
00:49:21,410 --> 00:49:19,380
giant Mothership one person the car will

1225
00:49:24,530 --> 00:49:21,420
not and then pretty much everybody else

1226
00:49:26,569 --> 00:49:24,540
on the interstate packed LA traffic will

1227
00:49:27,770 --> 00:49:26,579
not see anything right how is that

1228
00:49:28,790 --> 00:49:27,780
possible

1229
00:49:31,609 --> 00:49:28,800
um

1230
00:49:33,170 --> 00:49:31,619
some people will say well let's let's

1231
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:33,180
say that physical reality as we

1232
00:49:36,109 --> 00:49:35,040
understand it is safe let's just say

1233
00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:36,119
that they're beaming into the

1234
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:38,700
consciousness of the people directly I

1235
00:49:42,349 --> 00:49:40,079
think it goes deeper than that I really

1236
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:42,359
do think that

1237
00:49:47,870 --> 00:49:44,880
the rendering of reality is is the level

1238
00:49:50,270 --> 00:49:47,880
at which they are operating and it's not

1239
00:49:53,150 --> 00:49:50,280
just about you know interfering with the

1240
00:49:54,770 --> 00:49:53,160
mentation process of a human being as if

1241
00:49:57,710 --> 00:49:54,780
like you know manipulating the new the

1242
00:49:59,450 --> 00:49:57,720
neurons or something or the synaptic

1243
00:50:01,849 --> 00:49:59,460
Connections in the brain it's it's much

1244
00:50:04,370 --> 00:50:01,859
deeper than that

1245
00:50:06,109 --> 00:50:04,380
but to reflect on my my own experience

1246
00:50:07,550 --> 00:50:06,119
the one I shared with the the huge

1247
00:50:09,170 --> 00:50:07,560
humming sound what was interesting about

1248
00:50:11,450 --> 00:50:09,180
that that relates to the story I just

1249
00:50:14,809 --> 00:50:11,460
said about the interstate uh kind of

1250
00:50:17,569 --> 00:50:14,819
scenario is a day or so later we ran

1251
00:50:21,770 --> 00:50:17,579
into our neighbors and

1252
00:50:24,650 --> 00:50:21,780
the lady brought up the event she also

1253
00:50:27,170 --> 00:50:24,660
heard this huge humming sound

1254
00:50:28,490 --> 00:50:27,180
um you know the night before and asked

1255
00:50:31,609 --> 00:50:28,500
if we'd heard it

1256
00:50:34,010 --> 00:50:31,619
and we had and then without me saying

1257
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:34,020
anything uh about my interest in this

1258
00:50:38,750 --> 00:50:37,440
topic she said I immediately thought UFO

1259
00:50:41,210 --> 00:50:38,760
and I thought that was so interesting

1260
00:50:42,530 --> 00:50:41,220
that this neighbor and I've only talked

1261
00:50:44,510 --> 00:50:42,540
to her like two or three times ever but

1262
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:44,520
we ran into her and and she said yeah

1263
00:50:48,770 --> 00:50:47,040
that's that's my initial thought but she

1264
00:50:50,990 --> 00:50:48,780
also didn't want to go look which

1265
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:51,000
doesn't make any sense and what adds to

1266
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:53,040
this strangeness is that her husband

1267
00:50:57,710 --> 00:50:55,200
didn't hear it and he was also in the

1268
00:50:59,630 --> 00:50:57,720
house so there's an example where

1269
00:51:01,549 --> 00:50:59,640
it's not the kind of thing based on the

1270
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:01,559
level of volume that I was experiencing

1271
00:51:03,890 --> 00:51:02,880
and that people in my house were

1272
00:51:05,870 --> 00:51:03,900
experiencing and that this woman

1273
00:51:08,210 --> 00:51:05,880
experienced that you can just ignore

1274
00:51:09,589 --> 00:51:08,220
right even if you had headphones on you

1275
00:51:12,910 --> 00:51:09,599
would hear this over top of that it was

1276
00:51:15,250 --> 00:51:12,920
that loud but he didn't hear it so again

1277
00:51:18,589 --> 00:51:15,260
that kind of custom

1278
00:51:20,450 --> 00:51:18,599
crafting of the experience of reality is

1279
00:51:23,210 --> 00:51:20,460
really really bizarre right it goes

1280
00:51:26,089 --> 00:51:23,220
beyond just peculiar this is now

1281
00:51:27,770 --> 00:51:26,099
you know verging on questioning our

1282
00:51:29,690 --> 00:51:27,780
model of what reality is Right some

1283
00:51:32,270 --> 00:51:29,700
people would say I'm questioning my own

1284
00:51:34,430 --> 00:51:32,280
sanity but here we have multiple people

1285
00:51:37,430 --> 00:51:34,440
experiencing the same thing so

1286
00:51:38,690 --> 00:51:37,440
does it make sense is it logical to

1287
00:51:42,049 --> 00:51:38,700
assume that this is a collective

1288
00:51:43,849 --> 00:51:42,059
delusion or again when you take this in

1289
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:43,859
the totality of all of the historical

1290
00:51:49,130 --> 00:51:46,559
narrative around this phenomenon that

1291
00:51:50,930 --> 00:51:49,140
this is again a feature not a bug

1292
00:51:53,390 --> 00:51:50,940
this really does seem to be pointing

1293
00:51:54,170 --> 00:51:53,400
towards the nature of reality itself

1294
00:51:57,710 --> 00:51:54,180
um

1295
00:52:01,490 --> 00:51:57,720
now in terms of absurdity

1296
00:52:05,390 --> 00:52:01,500
I think one I think about is

1297
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:05,400
or a couple examples I'll give one is

1298
00:52:08,690 --> 00:52:07,200
I remember in I think it happened to the

1299
00:52:10,190 --> 00:52:08,700
kids in Zimbabwe

1300
00:52:11,390 --> 00:52:10,200
and I brought this up in New York as

1301
00:52:13,450 --> 00:52:11,400
well

1302
00:52:16,910 --> 00:52:13,460
there have been cases like this where

1303
00:52:18,290 --> 00:52:16,920
beings will show up right so people will

1304
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:18,300
say well they were they Dreaming or was

1305
00:52:22,370 --> 00:52:19,680
it physical it's like no it was physical

1306
00:52:24,049 --> 00:52:22,380
they walked you know

1307
00:52:26,410 --> 00:52:24,059
um people saw the craft in front of a

1308
00:52:28,430 --> 00:52:26,420
tree right the tree moved so we have

1309
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:28,440
indications this is happening in

1310
00:52:33,049 --> 00:52:30,720
physical reality but what's weird is the

1311
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:33,059
kids noticed the beings walking across

1312
00:52:37,849 --> 00:52:35,280
the field and then like like a frame

1313
00:52:39,770 --> 00:52:37,859
skipping in a movie they suddenly jumped

1314
00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:39,780
back and walked again saw them walking

1315
00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:41,760
again that exact same

1316
00:52:46,430 --> 00:52:43,920
stretch of of field

1317
00:52:48,290 --> 00:52:46,440
so what does that mean right what is

1318
00:52:50,690 --> 00:52:48,300
that is that a some sort of

1319
00:52:53,150 --> 00:52:50,700
residual effect of a space-time

1320
00:52:54,770 --> 00:52:53,160
Distortion that they're able to work at

1321
00:52:56,630 --> 00:52:54,780
that level or is it deeper than that

1322
00:52:58,609 --> 00:52:56,640
even right this this brings up those

1323
00:52:59,270 --> 00:52:58,619
kinds of questions

1324
00:53:02,510 --> 00:52:59,280
um

1325
00:53:05,150 --> 00:53:02,520
there's also times where

1326
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:05,160
again the absurdity comes down to

1327
00:53:08,690 --> 00:53:06,960
how does that even make sense so for

1328
00:53:10,130 --> 00:53:08,700
instance I think about I think his name

1329
00:53:11,690 --> 00:53:10,140
was Joe simmington

1330
00:53:13,809 --> 00:53:11,700
and he had this experience with these

1331
00:53:16,609 --> 00:53:13,819
beings that landed in his backyard

1332
00:53:17,870 --> 00:53:16,619
and they came out and they didn't look

1333
00:53:19,970 --> 00:53:17,880
like Graves they didn't look like

1334
00:53:21,890 --> 00:53:19,980
reptilians they didn't look like you

1335
00:53:24,010 --> 00:53:21,900
know mantis beings they looked like

1336
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:24,020
Italians

1337
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:29,520
right and so

1338
00:53:33,109 --> 00:53:31,740
again ufologists at the time really

1339
00:53:34,970 --> 00:53:33,119
didn't want to have anything to do with

1340
00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:34,980
this case and in fact when

1341
00:53:42,829 --> 00:53:38,880
the military looked into it the way they

1342
00:53:46,069 --> 00:53:42,839
explained it away is to say that

1343
00:53:47,630 --> 00:53:46,079
this guy somehow mixed a waking state

1344
00:53:50,210 --> 00:53:47,640
with a dream state in the middle of the

1345
00:53:51,890 --> 00:53:50,220
day without really having any notion of

1346
00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:51,900
how that actually happened it just

1347
00:53:56,210 --> 00:53:53,160
basically was

1348
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:56,220
an explanation that chose not to deal

1349
00:54:00,530 --> 00:53:59,040
with the the experience at all the data

1350
00:54:02,210 --> 00:54:00,540
at hand

1351
00:54:04,309 --> 00:54:02,220
um but what's even stranger is that you

1352
00:54:05,930 --> 00:54:04,319
know they they made pancakes and gave

1353
00:54:09,049 --> 00:54:05,940
them a couple pancakes

1354
00:54:10,609 --> 00:54:09,059
to take with them which he actually was

1355
00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:10,619
able to produce and gave to the military

1356
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:12,480
and they actually examined it right they

1357
00:54:17,569 --> 00:54:15,119
actually had uh technicians examine this

1358
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:17,579
at the you know molecular level and

1359
00:54:21,349 --> 00:54:18,960
determined sure enough they're pretty

1360
00:54:23,870 --> 00:54:21,359
much standard pancakes kind of cardboard

1361
00:54:25,730 --> 00:54:23,880
tasting but pancakes right and so it's

1362
00:54:28,030 --> 00:54:25,740
that that level of like it's one thing

1363
00:54:31,490 --> 00:54:28,040
to think about gray aliens coming in

1364
00:54:32,750 --> 00:54:31,500
sophisticated you know shiny uh

1365
00:54:34,730 --> 00:54:32,760
spacecraft

1366
00:54:36,710 --> 00:54:34,740
with you know

1367
00:54:38,329 --> 00:54:36,720
really Advanced Computer Banks and

1368
00:54:39,890 --> 00:54:38,339
things like that right

1369
00:54:42,170 --> 00:54:39,900
um craft that maybe can hover things

1370
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:42,180
that look like next-gen to us right but

1371
00:54:46,670 --> 00:54:44,160
the idea of a bunch of Italians stacking

1372
00:54:48,349 --> 00:54:46,680
stepping out of us craft and and

1373
00:54:50,210 --> 00:54:48,359
offering up pancakes and sometimes

1374
00:54:54,710 --> 00:54:50,220
asking if you have some water for their

1375
00:54:56,690 --> 00:54:54,720
Journey just doesn't fit with any notion

1376
00:54:59,089 --> 00:54:56,700
of how that makes any sense

1377
00:55:00,230 --> 00:54:59,099
to the point where even ufologists would

1378
00:55:03,170 --> 00:55:00,240
rather

1379
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:03,180
accept the military's

1380
00:55:08,930 --> 00:55:06,480
decision that this was just basically a

1381
00:55:11,089 --> 00:55:08,940
waking dream experience and and so it

1382
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:11,099
explains it away and so even the

1383
00:55:15,410 --> 00:55:13,680
ufologists will say yeah I'd rather

1384
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:15,420
accept that conclusion than have to

1385
00:55:21,650 --> 00:55:19,200
bring this data into my Reckoning of

1386
00:55:24,290 --> 00:55:21,660
what's actually going on

1387
00:55:27,109 --> 00:55:24,300
yeah I think of uh some other good

1388
00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:27,119
examples often these come with the

1389
00:55:32,569 --> 00:55:29,040
Snicker Factor so it's the Skin Walkers

1390
00:55:36,890 --> 00:55:32,579
at the Pentagon anecdotes about uh the

1391
00:55:39,829 --> 00:55:36,900
dino Beaver or the uh you know werewolf

1392
00:55:42,109 --> 00:55:39,839
uh said standing under the tree or

1393
00:55:44,450 --> 00:55:42,119
retreating into the bushes or whatever

1394
00:55:47,390 --> 00:55:44,460
smoking a cigarette no less smoking a

1395
00:55:50,829 --> 00:55:47,400
cigarette yeah I mean these things

1396
00:55:54,109 --> 00:55:50,839
literally are utterly absurd

1397
00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:54,119
and and I'm laughing they are hard to

1398
00:55:58,730 --> 00:55:55,920
take seriously they're very hard to take

1399
00:56:03,290 --> 00:55:58,740
seriously and and that makes them

1400
00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:03,300
ripe for ridicule and

1401
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:06,720
you can see how that

1402
00:56:13,730 --> 00:56:09,359
those two aspects of the in their found

1403
00:56:17,450 --> 00:56:15,710
these almost Achilles heels of the book

1404
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:17,460
itself like it's like oh I can't take

1405
00:56:22,549 --> 00:56:19,200
anything else seriously that's in this

1406
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:22,559
because of these incidents that can't

1407
00:56:26,750 --> 00:56:24,240
possibly be true because they're so

1408
00:56:30,349 --> 00:56:26,760
absurd you know we just have to discount

1409
00:56:33,890 --> 00:56:30,359
them outright so I I think about that

1410
00:56:38,210 --> 00:56:33,900
quite a bit that we we're just not

1411
00:56:41,390 --> 00:56:38,220
really well equipped to wrestle with

1412
00:56:43,730 --> 00:56:41,400
these elements of high strangeness that

1413
00:56:45,730 --> 00:56:43,740
that we're not accustomed to and our

1414
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:45,740
culture like our the way we talk about

1415
00:56:51,530 --> 00:56:48,960
our our experiences and our stories and

1416
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:51,540
uh what sort of constitute the the

1417
00:56:54,829 --> 00:56:53,280
things that we consider to be normative

1418
00:56:56,750 --> 00:56:54,839
I mean

1419
00:56:58,609 --> 00:56:56,760
there's just no place for this we don't

1420
00:57:01,390 --> 00:56:58,619
have any good place for this it's all

1421
00:57:04,270 --> 00:57:01,400
fairy tale it's all Hollywood

1422
00:57:07,010 --> 00:57:04,280
uh it's all uh you know sort of

1423
00:57:10,430 --> 00:57:07,020
drug-induced stupor or something you

1424
00:57:12,650 --> 00:57:10,440
know we just we write it off and um and

1425
00:57:15,170 --> 00:57:12,660
I wonder too

1426
00:57:18,530 --> 00:57:15,180
and we talked about this before you know

1427
00:57:23,569 --> 00:57:21,410
would would cultures of the past

1428
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:23,579
you know how would they explain these

1429
00:57:28,609 --> 00:57:26,160
incidents what kind of uh importance

1430
00:57:30,650 --> 00:57:28,619
would they place on these incidents

1431
00:57:33,290 --> 00:57:30,660
that we laugh at

1432
00:57:35,089 --> 00:57:33,300
well I think you you kind of nailed it

1433
00:57:36,589 --> 00:57:35,099
in a really ironic way when you said we

1434
00:57:40,250 --> 00:57:36,599
think about these and we consider them

1435
00:57:43,190 --> 00:57:40,260
fairy tales right and what's ironic

1436
00:57:47,329 --> 00:57:44,809
conventionally the way we think about

1437
00:57:48,770 --> 00:57:47,339
that now the notion of a fairy tale is

1438
00:57:50,990 --> 00:57:48,780
that it's basically a fun Children's

1439
00:57:53,690 --> 00:57:51,000
Story to help them develop their

1440
00:57:55,910 --> 00:57:53,700
imagination but it has no basis in

1441
00:57:57,950 --> 00:57:55,920
reality right like we don't even like

1442
00:57:59,569 --> 00:57:57,960
the very way you use that term is the

1443
00:58:00,950 --> 00:57:59,579
conventional way that term is used which

1444
00:58:03,470 --> 00:58:00,960
is to say

1445
00:58:06,589 --> 00:58:03,480
made up fun stories that have no basis

1446
00:58:08,930 --> 00:58:06,599
in reality right and yet when you go

1447
00:58:10,609 --> 00:58:08,940
back and you read some of these case

1448
00:58:12,290 --> 00:58:10,619
studies that were actually

1449
00:58:14,809 --> 00:58:12,300
people with an early but pretty

1450
00:58:16,790 --> 00:58:14,819
established scientific mindset who would

1451
00:58:19,309 --> 00:58:16,800
study fairy lore you know like a couple

1452
00:58:21,230 --> 00:58:19,319
hundred years ago and

1453
00:58:23,870 --> 00:58:21,240
when you read those cases they're not

1454
00:58:28,089 --> 00:58:23,880
describing like kids making up or

1455
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:28,099
hearing fun stories they're actually

1456
00:58:34,609 --> 00:58:31,920
interviewing people and cataloging data

1457
00:58:37,010 --> 00:58:34,619
of experiences with strange beings

1458
00:58:40,069 --> 00:58:37,020
either non-conventionally human or

1459
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:40,079
non-human altogether right and again to

1460
00:58:45,289 --> 00:58:42,720
Jacques valet's credit he saw that wait

1461
00:58:46,670 --> 00:58:45,299
a second these ancient Tales of

1462
00:58:49,069 --> 00:58:46,680
experiencing

1463
00:58:52,910 --> 00:58:49,079
beings who are not human but appear to

1464
00:58:54,829 --> 00:58:52,920
be around our vicinity

1465
00:58:56,210 --> 00:58:54,839
and not only interact with us but

1466
00:58:57,950 --> 00:58:56,220
sometimes

1467
00:58:59,390 --> 00:58:57,960
the way we would describe it now is they

1468
00:59:01,370 --> 00:58:59,400
mess with our notion of space time

1469
00:59:02,809 --> 00:59:01,380
you'll have people who disappear for

1470
00:59:05,569 --> 00:59:02,819
weeks on end

1471
00:59:06,829 --> 00:59:05,579
in fairy tales right and they show up on

1472
00:59:07,849 --> 00:59:06,839
their family and say where have you been

1473
00:59:09,289 --> 00:59:07,859
and they're like what do you mean it's

1474
00:59:11,170 --> 00:59:09,299
been like 20 minutes you're like no

1475
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:11,180
you've been gone for two weeks

1476
00:59:16,010 --> 00:59:13,920
and again

1477
00:59:17,329 --> 00:59:16,020
years ago if you and I had heard stories

1478
00:59:18,890 --> 00:59:17,339
like that we would laugh and say that

1479
00:59:22,549 --> 00:59:18,900
that's a fun story of course that can't

1480
00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:22,559
happen now number two we we know based

1481
00:59:26,329 --> 00:59:24,660
on more modern Notions of space-time

1482
00:59:27,950 --> 00:59:26,339
that absolutely could happen

1483
00:59:30,289 --> 00:59:27,960
you could have a local space-time that's

1484
00:59:31,970 --> 00:59:30,299
different than relative space-time for

1485
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:31,980
other people

1486
00:59:36,049 --> 00:59:34,319
um and that's that's again a feature of

1487
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:36,059
the UFO phenomenon happens all the time

1488
00:59:41,150 --> 00:59:38,400
where where you have these

1489
00:59:43,309 --> 00:59:41,160
missing time things like that right uh

1490
00:59:45,829 --> 00:59:43,319
Missing time was again a feature of

1491
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:45,839
fairy tales right and and by fairy tale

1492
00:59:51,289 --> 00:59:48,960
I mean that just literally being stories

1493
00:59:52,789 --> 00:59:51,299
about encounters with fairies uh I don't

1494
00:59:55,210 --> 00:59:52,799
know I don't mean it in a Snicker way I

1495
00:59:57,049 --> 00:59:55,220
mean in terms of right again

1496
00:59:58,010 --> 00:59:57,059
ultra-terrestrial beings you might want

1497
01:00:00,049 --> 00:59:58,020
to call them

1498
01:00:02,390 --> 01:00:00,059
that are having encounters with human

1499
01:00:04,250 --> 01:00:02,400
beings sometimes abducting them

1500
01:00:07,549 --> 01:00:04,260
sometimes they don't that human beings

1501
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:07,559
never return sometimes they have sexual

1502
01:00:11,150 --> 01:00:09,839
relations with these other beings and

1503
01:00:13,430 --> 01:00:11,160
produce what we would consider now

1504
01:00:16,250 --> 01:00:13,440
hybrid beings within the UFO phenomenon

1505
01:00:19,010 --> 01:00:16,260
I mean this uh

1506
01:00:22,130 --> 01:00:19,020
this goes back so so far that we

1507
01:00:24,349 --> 01:00:22,140
actually now are forced to ask wait a

1508
01:00:26,270 --> 01:00:24,359
second are those Tails actually not so

1509
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:26,280
made up after all are that not so

1510
01:00:30,589 --> 01:00:28,559
Fantastical but they're actually based

1511
01:00:32,930 --> 01:00:30,599
in reality somehow

1512
01:00:35,569 --> 01:00:32,940
um and yeah they are not really any

1513
01:00:38,390 --> 01:00:35,579
substantially different than

1514
01:00:39,890 --> 01:00:38,400
what was recounted in skin lockers of

1515
01:00:42,650 --> 01:00:39,900
the Pentagon like you said and and you

1516
01:00:45,010 --> 01:00:42,660
made a great point there that

1517
01:00:48,289 --> 01:00:45,020
most people or many people won't even

1518
01:00:51,530 --> 01:00:48,299
bother to reckon with those experiences

1519
01:00:54,890 --> 01:00:51,540
they hear Dino Beaver they hear six foot

1520
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:54,900
tall you know standing on two legs wolf

1521
01:00:59,809 --> 01:00:57,119
being smoking a cigarette against a

1522
01:01:02,089 --> 01:00:59,819
light post and they go

1523
01:01:04,370 --> 01:01:02,099
yeah the whole thing's bunk there's no

1524
01:01:07,250 --> 01:01:04,380
way that that there's any possibility

1525
01:01:08,809 --> 01:01:07,260
that could be true therefore these

1526
01:01:11,510 --> 01:01:08,819
people that are reporting any of these

1527
01:01:14,329 --> 01:01:11,520
events even more standard UFO kind of

1528
01:01:17,450 --> 01:01:14,339
events can't be taken seriously right it

1529
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:17,460
just de facto that that is now excluded

1530
01:01:22,250 --> 01:01:19,440
from consideration

1531
01:01:26,150 --> 01:01:22,260
this is again what this phenomenon does

1532
01:01:30,410 --> 01:01:26,160
is it presents these bizarre elements of

1533
01:01:32,890 --> 01:01:30,420
reality where whether you call it

1534
01:01:34,970 --> 01:01:32,900
I mean the way that I've described it is

1535
01:01:37,609 --> 01:01:34,980
interpenetrating fields of mentation

1536
01:01:40,490 --> 01:01:37,619
that ultimately reality is a construct

1537
01:01:43,370 --> 01:01:40,500
that's ultimately kind of a mind

1538
01:01:45,049 --> 01:01:43,380
derived experience and in the same way

1539
01:01:47,870 --> 01:01:45,059
that you have a dream and everything

1540
01:01:49,609 --> 01:01:47,880
feels physical and real and if you fall

1541
01:01:51,950 --> 01:01:49,619
off your bike in a dream it hurts just

1542
01:01:54,349 --> 01:01:51,960
like it does in the real world so it's

1543
01:01:57,170 --> 01:01:54,359
again it's internally consistent but

1544
01:01:59,809 --> 01:01:57,180
what we sometimes have is

1545
01:02:01,730 --> 01:01:59,819
not these hard rigid lines between

1546
01:02:05,210 --> 01:02:01,740
different reality constructs but there

1547
01:02:06,849 --> 01:02:05,220
are certain times where you have overlap

1548
01:02:09,650 --> 01:02:06,859
you have interplay you have

1549
01:02:12,289 --> 01:02:09,660
interpenetration right and this was

1550
01:02:14,210 --> 01:02:12,299
again a major feature of

1551
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:14,220
stories of the UFO phenomenon in even

1552
01:02:19,130 --> 01:02:16,319
early in in the 20th century

1553
01:02:21,710 --> 01:02:19,140
this notion that these others would tell

1554
01:02:23,089 --> 01:02:21,720
human beings there are interpenetrating

1555
01:02:26,030 --> 01:02:23,099
realities that you're a part of right

1556
01:02:28,190 --> 01:02:26,040
now reality is multi-dimensional even

1557
01:02:30,410 --> 01:02:28,200
when you detonate atomic bombs you are

1558
01:02:31,910 --> 01:02:30,420
doing things interdimensionally that you

1559
01:02:34,670 --> 01:02:31,920
don't understand yet because you have no

1560
01:02:37,309 --> 01:02:34,680
notion yet of the complexity of reality

1561
01:02:40,609 --> 01:02:37,319
so this is really what we have to reckon

1562
01:02:42,650 --> 01:02:40,619
with this is to me for me I I have been

1563
01:02:44,750 --> 01:02:42,660
around this long enough now that this is

1564
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:44,760
exciting to me this um

1565
01:02:49,910 --> 01:02:48,240
this is worth exploring and I don't uh

1566
01:02:52,670 --> 01:02:49,920
exclude that kind of data anymore and

1567
01:02:55,309 --> 01:02:52,680
I'm kind of come around like Bernardo

1568
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:55,319
castrup and uh Ann strieber in terms of

1569
01:03:00,230 --> 01:02:57,839
if experiences don't have some element

1570
01:03:04,910 --> 01:03:00,240
of strangeness then I'm not sure they're

1571
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:06,890
to me presents a challenge how do we get

1572
01:03:11,809 --> 01:03:09,119
from where we are now

1573
01:03:14,210 --> 01:03:11,819
uh the models that were

1574
01:03:17,589 --> 01:03:14,220
they're most prevalent in our culture to

1575
01:03:20,230 --> 01:03:17,599
models that can better incorporate

1576
01:03:23,390 --> 01:03:20,240
elements of high strangeness

1577
01:03:25,970 --> 01:03:23,400
and treat them seriously

1578
01:03:28,849 --> 01:03:25,980
I think we have a tremendous hurdle

1579
01:03:30,950 --> 01:03:28,859
there to overcome

1580
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:30,960
um because

1581
01:03:35,170 --> 01:03:32,880
you know gets to one of the sort of

1582
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:35,180
fundamental aspects of our science that

1583
01:03:41,690 --> 01:03:38,160
reproducibility component that would

1584
01:03:44,630 --> 01:03:41,700
really can't quite get here

1585
01:03:48,430 --> 01:03:44,640
um and so we're having to to Really

1586
01:03:51,170 --> 01:03:48,440
grapple with the highly subjective

1587
01:03:54,170 --> 01:03:51,180
nature of these experiences and then and

1588
01:03:55,329 --> 01:03:54,180
then drawing meaningful conclusions from

1589
01:03:59,510 --> 01:03:55,339
them

1590
01:04:02,630 --> 01:03:59,520
and I think too we have uh we've come to

1591
01:04:05,089 --> 01:04:02,640
a place where our thinking is

1592
01:04:08,870 --> 01:04:05,099
is so

1593
01:04:12,130 --> 01:04:08,880
uh prescriptive not at an individual

1594
01:04:16,730 --> 01:04:12,140
level but as a societal level like we we

1595
01:04:19,250 --> 01:04:16,740
personal truth is not as important as

1596
01:04:22,309 --> 01:04:19,260
the things that we can learn that we

1597
01:04:25,430 --> 01:04:22,319
that can influence us as a as a global

1598
01:04:29,109 --> 01:04:25,440
civilization via things like technology

1599
01:04:33,130 --> 01:04:29,119
and so uh in some ways for me

1600
01:04:36,230 --> 01:04:33,140
incorporating High strangeness and and

1601
01:04:40,849 --> 01:04:36,240
non-duality into my way of thinking it

1602
01:04:42,670 --> 01:04:40,859
it kind of pushes me away from this uh

1603
01:04:45,890 --> 01:04:42,680
um

1604
01:04:47,690 --> 01:04:45,900
older way of thinking and really puts

1605
01:04:50,450 --> 01:04:47,700
the spotlight on the individual

1606
01:04:52,190 --> 01:04:50,460
experience in a strange way right it's a

1607
01:04:54,410 --> 01:04:52,200
little bit ironic because

1608
01:04:56,750 --> 01:04:54,420
with non-duality it's not really about

1609
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:56,760
you know me and you it's we're really

1610
01:05:00,589 --> 01:04:58,799
connected at a fundamental level but at

1611
01:05:03,710 --> 01:05:00,599
the same time that's what I'm getting at

1612
01:05:05,809 --> 01:05:03,720
here is that we take very seriously the

1613
01:05:09,890 --> 01:05:05,819
experiences that we have as individuals

1614
01:05:12,589 --> 01:05:09,900
and we place a kind of Primacy on them

1615
01:05:15,210 --> 01:05:12,599
um that we we just don't

1616
01:05:15,770 --> 01:05:15,220
in our in our current way of thinking

1617
01:05:16,430 --> 01:05:15,780
[Music]

1618
01:05:19,250 --> 01:05:16,440
um

1619
01:05:21,470 --> 01:05:19,260
but how does that work you know sort of

1620
01:05:23,390 --> 01:05:21,480
macroscopically I mean or should it even

1621
01:05:25,730 --> 01:05:23,400
work that way right should it even

1622
01:05:27,650 --> 01:05:25,740
should these unique things that happen

1623
01:05:30,289 --> 01:05:27,660
that are so strange

1624
01:05:33,049 --> 01:05:30,299
you know should they act in such a way

1625
01:05:34,990 --> 01:05:33,059
if we were to or to analyze them and

1626
01:05:39,589 --> 01:05:35,000
take them all seriously should they

1627
01:05:42,650 --> 01:05:39,599
change our society in in a uniform way

1628
01:05:44,930 --> 01:05:42,660
or have an effect on it and if so like

1629
01:05:47,870 --> 01:05:44,940
what what is the effect there

1630
01:05:49,849 --> 01:05:47,880
what are the learnings from that

1631
01:05:52,309 --> 01:05:49,859
well the first thing I would say and

1632
01:05:53,690 --> 01:05:52,319
this relates to my presentation in New

1633
01:05:55,250 --> 01:05:53,700
York

1634
01:05:57,770 --> 01:05:55,260
is that

1635
01:06:00,650 --> 01:05:57,780
what I did when I got to the point where

1636
01:06:02,270 --> 01:06:00,660
I was coming across all of these

1637
01:06:03,650 --> 01:06:02,280
descriptions of really strange

1638
01:06:05,089 --> 01:06:03,660
encounters

1639
01:06:07,490 --> 01:06:05,099
was

1640
01:06:10,730 --> 01:06:07,500
go outside the UFO phenomenon get away

1641
01:06:11,870 --> 01:06:10,740
from the literature look at other fields

1642
01:06:14,690 --> 01:06:11,880
of inquiry

1643
01:06:17,930 --> 01:06:14,700
and see if there was anything else in

1644
01:06:19,789 --> 01:06:17,940
other fields other scientific endeavors

1645
01:06:23,089 --> 01:06:19,799
that

1646
01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:23,099
would lend support to the validity of

1647
01:06:27,710 --> 01:06:25,440
these experiences or even lend some

1648
01:06:29,450 --> 01:06:27,720
explanation potentially as to what's

1649
01:06:31,730 --> 01:06:29,460
going on

1650
01:06:34,309 --> 01:06:31,740
people often lean on you know Quantum

1651
01:06:36,529 --> 01:06:34,319
everything right so uh people who are

1652
01:06:39,710 --> 01:06:36,539
into everything from new age to the UFO

1653
01:06:41,270 --> 01:06:39,720
phenomenon to Consciousness studies

1654
01:06:43,789 --> 01:06:41,280
like to just say everything's Quantum

1655
01:06:45,109 --> 01:06:43,799
right like Quantum grocery shopping is

1656
01:06:47,390 --> 01:06:45,119
fun to do

1657
01:06:48,829 --> 01:06:47,400
um problem solved that's right

1658
01:06:51,289 --> 01:06:48,839
but

1659
01:06:53,289 --> 01:06:51,299
what was fascinating to me is that I did

1660
01:06:56,029 --> 01:06:53,299
indeed find

1661
01:06:57,829 --> 01:06:56,039
investigations and evidence and

1662
01:07:00,890 --> 01:06:57,839
substantive data in other fields of

1663
01:07:03,049 --> 01:07:00,900
inquiry that support

1664
01:07:06,230 --> 01:07:03,059
the reality of these claims the reality

1665
01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:06,240
of these described experiences

1666
01:07:11,210 --> 01:07:08,160
um you know Donald Hoffman we've talked

1667
01:07:13,549 --> 01:07:11,220
about several times in this podcast

1668
01:07:15,349 --> 01:07:13,559
pretty boldly says that we do not

1669
01:07:17,809 --> 01:07:15,359
experience reality

1670
01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:17,819
directly what we experience is more like

1671
01:07:25,670 --> 01:07:21,839
an interface with icons that only very

1672
01:07:27,529 --> 01:07:25,680
Loosely and non-literally reference a

1673
01:07:29,569 --> 01:07:27,539
deeper reality structure for which we

1674
01:07:31,730 --> 01:07:29,579
never interact directly at least in our

1675
01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:31,740
waking experience right

1676
01:07:35,750 --> 01:07:34,559
so when you look at it that way suddenly

1677
01:07:37,370 --> 01:07:35,760
you say

1678
01:07:39,170 --> 01:07:37,380
well it's not like we're experiencing

1679
01:07:41,630 --> 01:07:39,180
reality as it is and then we get some

1680
01:07:43,730 --> 01:07:41,640
weird stuff that is interjected what

1681
01:07:45,049 --> 01:07:43,740
he's saying is that everything we see

1682
01:07:49,069 --> 01:07:45,059
around each other

1683
01:07:52,370 --> 01:07:49,079
and around us is an icon that the

1684
01:07:54,589 --> 01:07:52,380
process of evolution has used to allow

1685
01:07:57,589 --> 01:07:54,599
us to interact with that deeper reality

1686
01:08:00,650 --> 01:07:57,599
but that deeper reality is so complex so

1687
01:08:02,630 --> 01:08:00,660
overwhelming that if we were to pay

1688
01:08:04,250 --> 01:08:02,640
attention to all of that data we would

1689
01:08:07,370 --> 01:08:04,260
be driven to Extinction and so they've

1690
01:08:09,230 --> 01:08:07,380
done these simulations with evolutionary

1691
01:08:11,450 --> 01:08:09,240
Game Theory where you can run hundreds

1692
01:08:13,069 --> 01:08:11,460
or thousands of simulations and what

1693
01:08:15,650 --> 01:08:13,079
they find is

1694
01:08:18,650 --> 01:08:15,660
the beings that actually try to take in

1695
01:08:20,510 --> 01:08:18,660
the OR account for all of that data were

1696
01:08:23,209 --> 01:08:20,520
driven to Extinction whereas the ones

1697
01:08:25,249 --> 01:08:23,219
that developed shortcuts ways of

1698
01:08:27,709 --> 01:08:25,259
knowing just enough to stay alive and

1699
01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:27,719
reproduce were sure enough able to do

1700
01:08:32,510 --> 01:08:29,520
that and therefore

1701
01:08:34,430 --> 01:08:32,520
you know just by an extension of that

1702
01:08:37,849 --> 01:08:34,440
people like you and I

1703
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:37,859
are the progeny of ancestors who learn

1704
01:08:42,950 --> 01:08:40,560
those shortcuts so already we know

1705
01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:42,960
there's really no question here it's not

1706
01:08:49,309 --> 01:08:46,799
like we we have a 60 percent you know uh

1707
01:08:50,450 --> 01:08:49,319
accurate display of what's actually

1708
01:08:52,309 --> 01:08:50,460
going on

1709
01:08:54,410 --> 01:08:52,319
what Hoffman will say and again this is

1710
01:08:56,329 --> 01:08:54,420
backed up with mathematical theorems

1711
01:08:58,249 --> 01:08:56,339
this is not just wishful thinking here

1712
01:09:02,329 --> 01:08:58,259
says that the chances that what we see

1713
01:09:05,090 --> 01:09:02,339
is actual reality is precisely zero we

1714
01:09:06,709 --> 01:09:05,100
do not see reality as it is it exists

1715
01:09:08,090 --> 01:09:06,719
there is a deeper structure we just

1716
01:09:09,470 --> 01:09:08,100
don't interact with it directly

1717
01:09:11,510 --> 01:09:09,480
especially in our waking experience

1718
01:09:14,930 --> 01:09:11,520
again I think in

1719
01:09:17,630 --> 01:09:14,940
astral travel lucid dreams psychedelic

1720
01:09:19,970 --> 01:09:17,640
Journeys we can actually meditation even

1721
01:09:21,890 --> 01:09:19,980
we can experience that broader reality

1722
01:09:22,729 --> 01:09:21,900
and as I mentioned in my talk in New

1723
01:09:25,189 --> 01:09:22,739
York

1724
01:09:28,130 --> 01:09:25,199
interestingly these others

1725
01:09:29,689 --> 01:09:28,140
when they seem to choose these Prime

1726
01:09:31,370 --> 01:09:29,699
contact these these people are going to

1727
01:09:34,550 --> 01:09:31,380
have a lifetime of really profound

1728
01:09:36,890 --> 01:09:34,560
experience with them they will often

1729
01:09:39,410 --> 01:09:36,900
again enter the consciousness of these

1730
01:09:42,590 --> 01:09:39,420
people when they're adolescents and

1731
01:09:44,930 --> 01:09:42,600
basically prep them to learn meditative

1732
01:09:48,709 --> 01:09:44,940
practices so that becomes the protocol

1733
01:09:50,150 --> 01:09:48,719
the the means of communication with this

1734
01:09:52,729 --> 01:09:50,160
deeper reality where many of these

1735
01:09:54,950 --> 01:09:52,739
others usually dwell right they can come

1736
01:09:56,750 --> 01:09:54,960
into our construct the same way that you

1737
01:09:57,950 --> 01:09:56,760
can send me an email and it can show up

1738
01:10:00,410 --> 01:09:57,960
in my desktop

1739
01:10:02,870 --> 01:10:00,420
right but

1740
01:10:04,130 --> 01:10:02,880
that's the level that it's you need to

1741
01:10:05,510 --> 01:10:04,140
think about when they come into our

1742
01:10:08,810 --> 01:10:05,520
physical reality it's the same way that

1743
01:10:10,970 --> 01:10:08,820
Nathan sends Darren an email right

1744
01:10:14,930 --> 01:10:12,830
and then even with physics right so I

1745
01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:14,940
again in my talk I talked about Nima

1746
01:10:20,090 --> 01:10:17,280
akani Hamed who's a physicist at

1747
01:10:21,410 --> 01:10:20,100
Princeton and how he uh

1748
01:10:25,250 --> 01:10:21,420
has

1749
01:10:27,229 --> 01:10:25,260
basically shown that space-time is not

1750
01:10:28,910 --> 01:10:27,239
really there it's the way he would

1751
01:10:31,130 --> 01:10:28,920
describe it I think people sometimes get

1752
01:10:33,950 --> 01:10:31,140
confused by the language when we say

1753
01:10:35,570 --> 01:10:33,960
things like space time is doomed when he

1754
01:10:38,330 --> 01:10:35,580
says that when a physicist says that

1755
01:10:41,030 --> 01:10:38,340
what they mean is it's not really there

1756
01:10:43,189 --> 01:10:41,040
that what we experience is an

1757
01:10:45,950 --> 01:10:43,199
approximation a derivative of some

1758
01:10:48,410 --> 01:10:45,960
deeper process and the way that we can

1759
01:10:50,209 --> 01:10:48,420
tell that it's not really there is by

1760
01:10:52,370 --> 01:10:50,219
the process of measurement again this is

1761
01:10:54,530 --> 01:10:52,380
where science is so great because unlike

1762
01:10:56,030 --> 01:10:54,540
people's wishful thinking it tells you

1763
01:10:58,550 --> 01:10:56,040
precisely where you're correct and

1764
01:11:00,169 --> 01:10:58,560
precisely where you're wrong and when

1765
01:11:02,090 --> 01:11:00,179
you try to measure things at the really

1766
01:11:03,530 --> 01:11:02,100
small scale

1767
01:11:07,310 --> 01:11:03,540
like what they're doing with a Large

1768
01:11:09,770 --> 01:11:07,320
Hadron Collider and CERN what we find is

1769
01:11:11,930 --> 01:11:09,780
you have to use so much energy energy to

1770
01:11:13,850 --> 01:11:11,940
measure a really really small space that

1771
01:11:16,130 --> 01:11:13,860
you end up collapsing that small space

1772
01:11:18,350 --> 01:11:16,140
into a black hole

1773
01:11:20,630 --> 01:11:18,360
and on the other end of the spectrum

1774
01:11:22,850 --> 01:11:20,640
when you get to the event horizon of a

1775
01:11:25,850 --> 01:11:22,860
black hole this massive or sorry super

1776
01:11:28,910 --> 01:11:25,860
dense object space time as we understand

1777
01:11:30,770 --> 01:11:28,920
it becomes incoherent beyond the

1778
01:11:32,090 --> 01:11:30,780
boundary of that black hole Beyond The

1779
01:11:35,149 --> 01:11:32,100
Event Horizon

1780
01:11:37,010 --> 01:11:35,159
so what physics and science has taught

1781
01:11:39,530 --> 01:11:37,020
us in the past is when we come across

1782
01:11:42,410 --> 01:11:39,540
those kinds of boundaries where we can

1783
01:11:44,090 --> 01:11:42,420
no longer even in principle conceive of

1784
01:11:47,390 --> 01:11:44,100
an experiment

1785
01:11:49,669 --> 01:11:47,400
it's telling us bluntly that that is

1786
01:11:52,010 --> 01:11:49,679
actually an approximation a derivative

1787
01:11:53,870 --> 01:11:52,020
of some deeper structure that what we're

1788
01:11:56,930 --> 01:11:53,880
actually measuring at that level is not

1789
01:11:59,630 --> 01:11:56,940
really there it's more like a

1790
01:12:01,729 --> 01:11:59,640
um again an approximation a derivative

1791
01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:01,739
of some deeper process so it works

1792
01:12:07,130 --> 01:12:04,800
within certain boundaries but ultimately

1793
01:12:09,290 --> 01:12:07,140
cannot be real because even in principle

1794
01:12:10,729 --> 01:12:09,300
it breaks down at certain points which

1795
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:10,739
tells you actually some deeper

1796
01:12:15,430 --> 01:12:13,199
structures what's really present in

1797
01:12:18,649 --> 01:12:15,440
reality that's what reality actually is

1798
01:12:21,229 --> 01:12:18,659
and already there are signs

1799
01:12:23,510 --> 01:12:21,239
um of evidence of this deeper structure

1800
01:12:25,370 --> 01:12:23,520
that you can even find out in some of

1801
01:12:28,310 --> 01:12:25,380
the math so we might take hundreds of

1802
01:12:30,950 --> 01:12:28,320
pages of algebra to describe some sort

1803
01:12:33,169 --> 01:12:30,960
of exp small event in space time right

1804
01:12:36,229 --> 01:12:33,179
it takes hundreds of pages

1805
01:12:38,149 --> 01:12:36,239
of algebraic equations to explain and

1806
01:12:41,030 --> 01:12:38,159
yet if you remember from high school

1807
01:12:42,890 --> 01:12:41,040
math or college math when you can reduce

1808
01:12:44,870 --> 01:12:42,900
your numbers and you can sort of

1809
01:12:47,330 --> 01:12:44,880
collapse that equation to a much simpler

1810
01:12:49,130 --> 01:12:47,340
common denominator that's kind of what

1811
01:12:51,649 --> 01:12:49,140
they've been able to do and they've been

1812
01:12:53,870 --> 01:12:51,659
able to show with something called the

1813
01:12:55,669 --> 01:12:53,880
amplitohedrin which is a geometric

1814
01:12:58,130 --> 01:12:55,679
structure

1815
01:13:00,649 --> 01:12:58,140
how all of the

1816
01:13:04,189 --> 01:13:00,659
elements of quantum theory and space

1817
01:13:06,290 --> 01:13:04,199
time can be projected out from this

1818
01:13:08,570 --> 01:13:06,300
notion of an amplitohedron which is

1819
01:13:10,669 --> 01:13:08,580
again a geometric structure so in other

1820
01:13:13,910 --> 01:13:10,679
words they found this much simpler more

1821
01:13:17,450 --> 01:13:13,920
elegant way of describing reality

1822
01:13:20,330 --> 01:13:17,460
which would as a byproduct produce

1823
01:13:22,370 --> 01:13:20,340
space-time and quantum theory so in

1824
01:13:25,490 --> 01:13:22,380
other words the the interface we live

1825
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:25,500
within that Hoffman talks about is

1826
01:13:29,330 --> 01:13:27,600
a projection of this deeper structure we

1827
01:13:32,750 --> 01:13:29,340
even have evidence

1828
01:13:35,810 --> 01:13:32,760
now of what that deeper structure might

1829
01:13:38,630 --> 01:13:35,820
be even though it's likely not spatial

1830
01:13:40,729 --> 01:13:38,640
temporal at all so to me this is

1831
01:13:42,890 --> 01:13:40,739
fascinating

1832
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:42,900
work and this is where my focus has

1833
01:13:45,950 --> 01:13:44,640
really been the ultimate nature of

1834
01:13:47,689 --> 01:13:45,960
reality

1835
01:13:49,610 --> 01:13:47,699
and my last point is what's of course

1836
01:13:51,950 --> 01:13:49,620
fascinating about this is it agrees with

1837
01:13:55,010 --> 01:13:51,960
so much of ancient esoteric Eastern

1838
01:13:58,010 --> 01:13:55,020
spirituality around reality being more

1839
01:13:59,930 --> 01:13:58,020
like a thought a mentation process that

1840
01:14:01,790 --> 01:13:59,940
everything we think about in the

1841
01:14:03,770 --> 01:14:01,800
phenomological world is actually an

1842
01:14:06,050 --> 01:14:03,780
illusion ultimately and some deeper

1843
01:14:08,570 --> 01:14:06,060
process is what's really real and that

1844
01:14:11,870 --> 01:14:08,580
as Hoffman would say Consciousness is

1845
01:14:15,610 --> 01:14:11,880
perhaps the Bedrock behind all of it

1846
01:14:20,149 --> 01:14:15,620
do you think that our

1847
01:14:22,370 --> 01:14:20,159
fixation on physicalism it has been a uh

1848
01:14:25,669 --> 01:14:22,380
like

1849
01:14:27,770 --> 01:14:25,679
a Fool's errand or an unwise sort of

1850
01:14:29,990 --> 01:14:27,780
path or do you think that it's it has

1851
01:14:31,510 --> 01:14:30,000
value in and of itself that it adds

1852
01:14:35,450 --> 01:14:31,520
something

1853
01:14:37,149 --> 01:14:35,460
to our understanding of I the idealistic

1854
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:37,159
Viewpoint that

1855
01:14:43,189 --> 01:14:40,640
you know it was it was it was it was it

1856
01:14:45,950 --> 01:14:43,199
sort of not necessary for us to chase

1857
01:14:48,290 --> 01:14:45,960
all of this technology and and you know

1858
01:14:51,830 --> 01:14:48,300
science and we would we have been better

1859
01:14:54,410 --> 01:14:51,840
off had we adopted the idealistic

1860
01:14:58,130 --> 01:14:54,420
worldview instead or do you see this

1861
01:15:01,130 --> 01:14:58,140
more uh you know sort of inclusive that

1862
01:15:03,189 --> 01:15:01,140
uh we in order to kind of appreciate it

1863
01:15:05,990 --> 01:15:03,199
we needed to go through this journey

1864
01:15:09,950 --> 01:15:06,000
first and foremost and incorporate some

1865
01:15:12,229 --> 01:15:09,960
of the learnings from materialism into

1866
01:15:14,390 --> 01:15:12,239
our worldview how do you kind of

1867
01:15:16,250 --> 01:15:14,400
bring these things together

1868
01:15:19,130 --> 01:15:16,260
yeah it's a good question

1869
01:15:20,750 --> 01:15:19,140
I think that

1870
01:15:22,070 --> 01:15:20,760
as I've pointed out a couple times

1871
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:22,080
before

1872
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:23,760
the reason why

1873
01:15:28,669 --> 01:15:26,640
physicalism has had such sway

1874
01:15:29,930 --> 01:15:28,679
and has become such a dominant Paradigm

1875
01:15:32,030 --> 01:15:29,940
to the point where it becomes

1876
01:15:34,370 --> 01:15:32,040
unquestioned right the same way that

1877
01:15:36,229 --> 01:15:34,380
religious Dogma was in the past

1878
01:15:37,970 --> 01:15:36,239
is because it's been so powerfully

1879
01:15:40,430 --> 01:15:37,980
transformative for our civilization

1880
01:15:43,850 --> 01:15:40,440
right we've extended our lifetimes

1881
01:15:47,290 --> 01:15:43,860
considerably we die of infectious

1882
01:15:50,630 --> 01:15:47,300
diseases far less than we used to

1883
01:15:53,390 --> 01:15:50,640
we now have probes that are you know now

1884
01:15:57,350 --> 01:15:53,400
beyond our solar system we have robot

1885
01:15:59,390 --> 01:15:57,360
Rovers on Mars we have cell phones we

1886
01:16:05,350 --> 01:15:59,400
have televisions refrigerators the

1887
01:16:10,490 --> 01:16:05,360
internet all of these Modern Marvels are

1888
01:16:14,810 --> 01:16:12,709
or at least are produced by

1889
01:16:17,930 --> 01:16:14,820
the powerful way we've been able to

1890
01:16:19,729 --> 01:16:17,940
model nature how it be how it behaves

1891
01:16:22,850 --> 01:16:19,739
and by doing that we've been able to

1892
01:16:24,649 --> 01:16:22,860
with predictive power uh manipulate the

1893
01:16:26,209 --> 01:16:24,659
way that nature behaves right because we

1894
01:16:29,510 --> 01:16:26,219
can predict it and once we know how it's

1895
01:16:32,030 --> 01:16:29,520
going to behave we can use that to to

1896
01:16:34,130 --> 01:16:32,040
change our experience of of reality

1897
01:16:35,450 --> 01:16:34,140
setting quotes right

1898
01:16:37,430 --> 01:16:35,460
but

1899
01:16:39,110 --> 01:16:37,440
you've talked about this before in

1900
01:16:41,149 --> 01:16:39,120
previous conversations I think you've

1901
01:16:43,189 --> 01:16:41,159
been on our last last episode

1902
01:16:44,510 --> 01:16:43,199
and yet in the midst of all those Modern

1903
01:16:46,450 --> 01:16:44,520
Marvels

1904
01:16:48,410 --> 01:16:46,460
that are you know

1905
01:16:51,470 --> 01:16:48,420
quantitatively and qualitatively

1906
01:16:54,169 --> 01:16:51,480
impacting of our experience of reality

1907
01:16:56,450 --> 01:16:54,179
there's a meaning crisis right we we

1908
01:16:59,990 --> 01:16:56,460
have all these great shiny objects but

1909
01:17:04,310 --> 01:17:03,050
you know meat socks that are nothing

1910
01:17:06,110 --> 01:17:04,320
more than

1911
01:17:08,630 --> 01:17:06,120
the byproduct of

1912
01:17:11,030 --> 01:17:08,640
neuronal Connections in a in the gray

1913
01:17:13,070 --> 01:17:11,040
matter of our physical brain and when

1914
01:17:14,930 --> 01:17:13,080
that deteriorates and dies there's

1915
01:17:16,550 --> 01:17:14,940
nothing to us

1916
01:17:18,830 --> 01:17:16,560
which of course begs the question what's

1917
01:17:21,229 --> 01:17:18,840
the point of shiny fun objects if

1918
01:17:22,910 --> 01:17:21,239
there's no meaning behind it all and if

1919
01:17:24,590 --> 01:17:22,920
you think that you're basically a blink

1920
01:17:27,470 --> 01:17:24,600
of an eye and then you're you're

1921
01:17:28,970 --> 01:17:27,480
non-existent as and nothing within a

1922
01:17:31,689 --> 01:17:28,980
couple Generations no one will ever know

1923
01:17:34,790 --> 01:17:31,699
you existed there's no point to it all

1924
01:17:38,750 --> 01:17:34,800
we try in mainstream culture to find

1925
01:17:42,229 --> 01:17:38,760
ways to talk about meaning in more you

1926
01:17:44,810 --> 01:17:42,239
know location specific temporally

1927
01:17:46,149 --> 01:17:44,820
specific ways because we we know in the

1928
01:17:48,890 --> 01:17:46,159
background that there's nothing

1929
01:17:51,229 --> 01:17:48,900
ultimately real about our Consciousness

1930
01:17:53,570 --> 01:17:51,239
things like that so you really can get

1931
01:17:56,090 --> 01:17:53,580
to the point where you ask the question

1932
01:17:58,090 --> 01:17:56,100
are are we better off and in what ways

1933
01:18:00,890 --> 01:17:58,100
are we better off or what have we traded

1934
01:18:03,950 --> 01:18:00,900
uh in exchange for these modern marbles

1935
01:18:06,229 --> 01:18:03,960
you know I think that um

1936
01:18:08,750 --> 01:18:06,239
it may be that at least for our species

1937
01:18:10,130 --> 01:18:08,760
it's a necessary step that we ironically

1938
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:10,140
had to go from

1939
01:18:15,229 --> 01:18:12,480
idealism being kind of the the Mainstay

1940
01:18:17,709 --> 01:18:15,239
to then embracing physicalism until we

1941
01:18:20,090 --> 01:18:17,719
hit the boundaries and then realized

1942
01:18:21,770 --> 01:18:20,100
ironically after all that

1943
01:18:24,229 --> 01:18:21,780
that idealism actually is the better

1944
01:18:25,490 --> 01:18:24,239
notion and that

1945
01:18:27,229 --> 01:18:25,500
um what we were actually manipulating

1946
01:18:29,570 --> 01:18:27,239
was a sort of middle state or a

1947
01:18:32,450 --> 01:18:29,580
derivative state of some deeper reality

1948
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:32,460
hopefully what will happen is that the

1949
01:18:36,709 --> 01:18:34,080
two will kind of be married together and

1950
01:18:39,050 --> 01:18:36,719
that we can take the best of what

1951
01:18:41,330 --> 01:18:39,060
physical physicalism has given us in

1952
01:18:44,030 --> 01:18:41,340
terms of Transforming Our physical

1953
01:18:46,970 --> 01:18:44,040
reality exciting quotes while also

1954
01:18:48,530 --> 01:18:46,980
recognizing and re-embracing the

1955
01:18:50,689 --> 01:18:48,540
Enchantment of life and the ultimate

1956
01:18:53,090 --> 01:18:50,699
meaning of our Consciousness and the

1957
01:18:55,130 --> 01:18:53,100
permanent nature the Eternal nature of

1958
01:18:58,310 --> 01:18:55,140
who we are and how that connects with

1959
01:19:01,130 --> 01:18:58,320
this substrate of Consciousness itself

1960
01:19:05,209 --> 01:19:01,140
well then this gets to I guess the

1961
01:19:08,209 --> 01:19:05,219
agenda or agendas perhaps of these other

1962
01:19:10,310 --> 01:19:08,219
intelligences that I think we would

1963
01:19:13,669 --> 01:19:10,320
argue

1964
01:19:16,070 --> 01:19:13,679
have had this type of awareness may have

1965
01:19:19,669 --> 01:19:16,080
gone through even a similar uh conscious

1966
01:19:21,770 --> 01:19:19,679
development of their own uh they may in

1967
01:19:25,669 --> 01:19:21,780
fact be trying to guide us on our

1968
01:19:27,290 --> 01:19:25,679
journey uh to maybe avoid some of the

1969
01:19:30,290 --> 01:19:27,300
same pitfalls that they themselves

1970
01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:30,300
perhaps made or give us opportunity to

1971
01:19:35,750 --> 01:19:32,880
avoid them we may still avoid them

1972
01:19:38,030 --> 01:19:35,760
um or we we may still make them uh so

1973
01:19:40,430 --> 01:19:38,040
what do you make of that uh with the

1974
01:19:42,890 --> 01:19:40,440
different kinds of intelligences that we

1975
01:19:45,590 --> 01:19:42,900
hear about and and what they're up to

1976
01:19:48,470 --> 01:19:45,600
and where we might be going here

1977
01:19:50,870 --> 01:19:48,480
I'm glad you asked that because I think

1978
01:19:53,270 --> 01:19:50,880
when you think about

1979
01:19:55,430 --> 01:19:53,280
these matters in this broader

1980
01:19:56,630 --> 01:19:55,440
perspective it does change the equation

1981
01:19:59,030 --> 01:19:56,640
so

1982
01:20:01,669 --> 01:19:59,040
for instance if you are wedded to a

1983
01:20:04,070 --> 01:20:01,679
physicalist model of reality

1984
01:20:07,370 --> 01:20:04,080
and you think therefore that listen

1985
01:20:10,790 --> 01:20:07,380
human civilization and the planet we

1986
01:20:14,689 --> 01:20:10,800
exist on is in a a rough spot you know

1987
01:20:17,510 --> 01:20:14,699
with climate change with

1988
01:20:19,430 --> 01:20:17,520
the fact that we have ever more powerful

1989
01:20:20,870 --> 01:20:19,440
weapons and yet not a growth in

1990
01:20:23,149 --> 01:20:20,880
Consciousness that

1991
01:20:25,490 --> 01:20:23,159
thinks deeply about the impact of those

1992
01:20:28,370 --> 01:20:25,500
weapons not only potentially on our

1993
01:20:29,330 --> 01:20:28,380
existential future but the biosphere in

1994
01:20:32,030 --> 01:20:29,340
general

1995
01:20:35,689 --> 01:20:32,040
if you think only in those terms then

1996
01:20:37,550 --> 01:20:35,699
you could easily say listen others why

1997
01:20:40,250 --> 01:20:37,560
don't you step in like yesterday please

1998
01:20:43,130 --> 01:20:40,260
because I know

1999
01:20:45,229 --> 01:20:43,140
we are on the verge of potentially

2000
01:20:47,810 --> 01:20:45,239
having an extinction level event that's

2001
01:20:50,330 --> 01:20:47,820
that's self you know self-performed

2002
01:20:53,030 --> 01:20:50,340
basically right mass suicide

2003
01:20:54,649 --> 01:20:53,040
uh basically based on our discrepancy

2004
01:20:57,709 --> 01:20:54,659
between our level of Consciousness and

2005
01:20:59,870 --> 01:20:57,719
our technological development

2006
01:21:02,149 --> 01:20:59,880
that makes some sense if that is your

2007
01:21:04,610 --> 01:21:02,159
model of reality but if your model of

2008
01:21:07,250 --> 01:21:04,620
reality is that

2009
01:21:09,290 --> 01:21:07,260
this lifetime is just one of many

2010
01:21:10,910 --> 01:21:09,300
and that the lessons we learn here are

2011
01:21:12,830 --> 01:21:10,920
more important than the particular

2012
01:21:14,450 --> 01:21:12,840
iteration whether it's this iteration or

2013
01:21:15,530 --> 01:21:14,460
every other iteration we've been a part

2014
01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:15,540
of

2015
01:21:20,030 --> 01:21:18,000
then suddenly you say

2016
01:21:21,590 --> 01:21:20,040
perhaps and I know this will be shocking

2017
01:21:23,930 --> 01:21:21,600
to some people but this is the way I

2018
01:21:27,050 --> 01:21:23,940
think and this is even again I would say

2019
01:21:28,910 --> 01:21:27,060
what's been communicated to me with the

2020
01:21:31,130 --> 01:21:28,920
others that I have been in contact with

2021
01:21:33,950 --> 01:21:31,140
is that it would be more important for

2022
01:21:37,130 --> 01:21:33,960
us to learn the lesson of an extinction

2023
01:21:39,590 --> 01:21:37,140
level event of an entire species than to

2024
01:21:41,209 --> 01:21:39,600
be rescued by kind of this nanny state

2025
01:21:43,010 --> 01:21:41,219
of these others who came in and

2026
01:21:46,070 --> 01:21:43,020
basically

2027
01:21:49,010 --> 01:21:46,080
had to take over like an occupying Force

2028
01:21:51,290 --> 01:21:49,020
in order to Keep Us Alive and keep us

2029
01:21:55,310 --> 01:21:51,300
going because what I'm saying is that

2030
01:21:57,110 --> 01:21:55,320
staying alive is not really the most

2031
01:21:58,850 --> 01:21:57,120
important thing of all what matters is

2032
01:22:01,310 --> 01:21:58,860
matters is the lessons you learn because

2033
01:22:04,610 --> 01:22:01,320
we are Eternal beings

2034
01:22:06,050 --> 01:22:04,620
so even if we get wiped off the face of

2035
01:22:08,630 --> 01:22:06,060
the planet in this iteration there will

2036
01:22:10,070 --> 01:22:08,640
be other iterations so it's a really

2037
01:22:11,450 --> 01:22:10,080
important question you ask because I

2038
01:22:12,890 --> 01:22:11,460
think that

2039
01:22:14,450 --> 01:22:12,900
when you think about the nature of

2040
01:22:16,550 --> 01:22:14,460
reality when you think about how this

2041
01:22:19,250 --> 01:22:16,560
may be just one lifetime of many

2042
01:22:21,770 --> 01:22:19,260
that we even having experiences as human

2043
01:22:24,530 --> 01:22:21,780
beings is not our only possibility that

2044
01:22:26,209 --> 01:22:24,540
we also have histories and Futures where

2045
01:22:27,890 --> 01:22:26,219
we will be something other than a human

2046
01:22:29,090 --> 01:22:27,900
being perhaps a gray alien something

2047
01:22:31,910 --> 01:22:29,100
else

2048
01:22:33,229 --> 01:22:31,920
then suddenly it changes the equation it

2049
01:22:35,330 --> 01:22:33,239
makes it

2050
01:22:37,729 --> 01:22:35,340
more acceptable I think for people to

2051
01:22:39,950 --> 01:22:37,739
recognize that they may be trying to

2052
01:22:42,830 --> 01:22:39,960
facilitate the learning of those

2053
01:22:44,930 --> 01:22:42,840
important lessons that are

2054
01:22:46,729 --> 01:22:44,940
that stretch over many lifetimes rather

2055
01:22:49,490 --> 01:22:46,739
than being focused on what's happening

2056
01:22:51,709 --> 01:22:49,500
in our particular iteration at this time

2057
01:22:55,610 --> 01:22:51,719
and space what do you think

2058
01:22:58,430 --> 01:22:55,620
yeah well I do like the uh

2059
01:23:01,790 --> 01:22:58,440
the sort of evolutionary

2060
01:23:03,770 --> 01:23:01,800
model of conscious awareness that that I

2061
01:23:06,169 --> 01:23:03,780
think entails

2062
01:23:08,990 --> 01:23:06,179
um uh you know but I also think about

2063
01:23:14,330 --> 01:23:12,470
sort of vast scope of life on Earth so

2064
01:23:17,750 --> 01:23:14,340
not just our own you know Human

2065
01:23:20,149 --> 01:23:17,760
Experience but the experience of of uh

2066
01:23:23,090 --> 01:23:20,159
of the planet and and the smallest

2067
01:23:25,130 --> 01:23:23,100
organisms to the largest and uh you know

2068
01:23:27,110 --> 01:23:25,140
how that fits into the in the in the

2069
01:23:29,510 --> 01:23:27,120
overall puzzle and I know that it does

2070
01:23:32,149 --> 01:23:29,520
and so that you know as we've talked

2071
01:23:34,610 --> 01:23:32,159
about before when looking at the world

2072
01:23:39,050 --> 01:23:34,620
and reality from the standpoint of uh

2073
01:23:41,630 --> 01:23:39,060
it's all Consciousness and uh that

2074
01:23:44,630 --> 01:23:41,640
these are expressions of Consciousness

2075
01:23:47,149 --> 01:23:44,640
these are individuated uh sort of

2076
01:23:47,870 --> 01:23:47,159
conscious agents to use uh Hoffman's

2077
01:23:49,310 --> 01:23:47,880
term

2078
01:23:52,910 --> 01:23:49,320
uh

2079
01:23:55,189 --> 01:23:52,920
that gives me a little bit you know more

2080
01:23:57,050 --> 01:23:55,199
peace with with the notion that you just

2081
01:23:59,209 --> 01:23:57,060
described that you know we may have to

2082
01:24:01,550 --> 01:23:59,219
wipe the Slate

2083
01:24:03,130 --> 01:24:01,560
um but but the journey itself isn't over

2084
01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:03,140
and

2085
01:24:07,910 --> 01:24:05,360
there has to be

2086
01:24:10,250 --> 01:24:07,920
there there and I guess this sort of

2087
01:24:12,709 --> 01:24:10,260
points to me to be some sort of

2088
01:24:15,250 --> 01:24:12,719
Arc of moral development in a way as

2089
01:24:18,169 --> 01:24:15,260
well like there has to be sort of stakes

2090
01:24:20,570 --> 01:24:18,179
uh in the in the game there has to be

2091
01:24:24,050 --> 01:24:20,580
something at stake in order for

2092
01:24:26,090 --> 01:24:24,060
development to occur and

2093
01:24:29,390 --> 01:24:26,100
um

2094
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:29,400
life in all of its expressions in in its

2095
01:24:33,410 --> 01:24:31,199
joy and its pain like it creates those

2096
01:24:37,610 --> 01:24:33,420
conditions whereby which

2097
01:24:39,350 --> 01:24:37,620
growth can can happen and so

2098
01:24:41,270 --> 01:24:39,360
you know it's it's an incredibly

2099
01:24:43,910 --> 01:24:41,280
elaborate uh

2100
01:24:46,790 --> 01:24:43,920
um construct in a way I mean it's it's

2101
01:24:48,590 --> 01:24:46,800
like the the richness and vastness of

2102
01:24:51,890 --> 01:24:48,600
this tapestry of life

2103
01:24:55,790 --> 01:24:51,900
that that we experience is is quite

2104
01:24:58,550 --> 01:24:55,800
incredible in service of this goal

2105
01:24:59,930 --> 01:24:58,560
knowing that it could be just like an

2106
01:25:02,450 --> 01:24:59,940
Etch A Sketch you could shake it up and

2107
01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:02,460
it would be gone you know to do it all

2108
01:25:08,570 --> 01:25:05,760
over again uh like that's

2109
01:25:11,209 --> 01:25:08,580
pretty incredible uh and it may actually

2110
01:25:12,229 --> 01:25:11,219
kind of hint toward the

2111
01:25:15,590 --> 01:25:12,239
um

2112
01:25:16,790 --> 01:25:15,600
the magnitude of the importance of the

2113
01:25:19,010 --> 01:25:16,800
end state

2114
01:25:21,530 --> 01:25:19,020
that we're trying to achieve here that

2115
01:25:25,490 --> 01:25:21,540
that that the Consciousness will go to

2116
01:25:26,630 --> 01:25:25,500
any length in any depth any breadth to

2117
01:25:28,669 --> 01:25:26,640
get to

2118
01:25:32,090 --> 01:25:28,679
a better end state

2119
01:25:34,130 --> 01:25:32,100
uh if if one can be achieved

2120
01:25:35,209 --> 01:25:34,140
yeah it's a good point and really comes

2121
01:25:38,450 --> 01:25:35,219
down to

2122
01:25:41,270 --> 01:25:38,460
ever expanding uh spheres where you have

2123
01:25:43,970 --> 01:25:41,280
skin in the game right so it begins with

2124
01:25:46,189 --> 01:25:43,980
your your own self uh or how you

2125
01:25:47,930 --> 01:25:46,199
understand yourself anyway and then your

2126
01:25:53,689 --> 01:25:47,940
family then your tribe then your nation

2127
01:25:58,010 --> 01:25:56,510
yeah I think that what's fascinating is

2128
01:26:00,709 --> 01:25:58,020
what we're discussing here is kind of

2129
01:26:04,550 --> 01:26:00,719
this notion where the original undivided

2130
01:26:08,510 --> 01:26:06,709
again to use a Bernardo Castro kind of

2131
01:26:10,790 --> 01:26:08,520
description

2132
01:26:13,610 --> 01:26:10,800
divided into these

2133
01:26:15,290 --> 01:26:13,620
Alters right these disassociations of

2134
01:26:17,629 --> 01:26:15,300
itself that

2135
01:26:19,370 --> 01:26:17,639
the reason why telepathy and and

2136
01:26:20,930 --> 01:26:19,380
precognition

2137
01:26:23,510 --> 01:26:20,940
and the fact that these others can get

2138
01:26:25,490 --> 01:26:23,520
into our heads and determine what we do

2139
01:26:27,830 --> 01:26:25,500
the reason why all that's possible is

2140
01:26:31,070 --> 01:26:27,840
because we actually are all part of the

2141
01:26:33,410 --> 01:26:31,080
same substrate of Consciousness the mind

2142
01:26:34,850 --> 01:26:33,420
of God if you will if you can handle the

2143
01:26:36,590 --> 01:26:34,860
baggage or at least put the baggage

2144
01:26:38,149 --> 01:26:36,600
aside for a while

2145
01:26:41,750 --> 01:26:38,159
um

2146
01:26:42,709 --> 01:26:41,760
and that you have these iterations over

2147
01:26:45,910 --> 01:26:42,719
time

2148
01:26:47,930 --> 01:26:45,920
where the the God had basically

2149
01:26:49,310 --> 01:26:47,940
subdivides into these units of

2150
01:26:51,890 --> 01:26:49,320
consciousness

2151
01:26:54,530 --> 01:26:51,900
and then does this for the sake of

2152
01:26:57,649 --> 01:26:54,540
experiencing reality all over again in a

2153
01:26:59,450 --> 01:26:57,659
novel way which then creates unique

2154
01:27:01,970 --> 01:26:59,460
experience which gets and lessons

2155
01:27:03,790 --> 01:27:01,980
learned that get contributed back to the

2156
01:27:06,830 --> 01:27:03,800
the totality right

2157
01:27:09,169 --> 01:27:06,840
I think one aspect that I've experienced

2158
01:27:13,910 --> 01:27:09,179
in some of my altered state of

2159
01:27:19,490 --> 01:27:17,149
even who I am becomes much deeper and

2160
01:27:23,030 --> 01:27:19,500
broader and I find myself experiencing

2161
01:27:25,129 --> 01:27:23,040
reality as a kind of plurality of beings

2162
01:27:26,930 --> 01:27:25,139
that I no longer have this hard line

2163
01:27:29,629 --> 01:27:26,940
between who I am and who these others

2164
01:27:32,689 --> 01:27:29,639
are that there's actually this

2165
01:27:34,370 --> 01:27:32,699
notion of a plurality and it's very hard

2166
01:27:36,050 --> 01:27:34,380
to describe because it's hard to I think

2167
01:27:38,090 --> 01:27:36,060
people to even conceive of but when you

2168
01:27:39,470 --> 01:27:38,100
experience it it feels completely normal

2169
01:27:42,189 --> 01:27:39,480
that's what's strange about it and then

2170
01:27:45,830 --> 01:27:42,199
you come back into this very finite

2171
01:27:47,810 --> 01:27:45,840
construct of a body mind and it feels

2172
01:27:49,910 --> 01:27:47,820
actually very limiting in comparison to

2173
01:27:51,649 --> 01:27:49,920
that so so much of this is relative to

2174
01:27:52,790 --> 01:27:51,659
what we're familiar with

2175
01:27:55,370 --> 01:27:52,800
um

2176
01:27:56,930 --> 01:27:55,380
but yeah I think that this is what it

2177
01:27:58,189 --> 01:27:56,940
really gets down to and I think the

2178
01:28:00,169 --> 01:27:58,199
reason why I would even say to people

2179
01:28:01,370 --> 01:28:00,179
you know because some people will say to

2180
01:28:03,410 --> 01:28:01,380
me

2181
01:28:04,910 --> 01:28:03,420
well how do you know that aliens care

2182
01:28:06,770 --> 01:28:04,920
about us you know why why would they

2183
01:28:07,790 --> 01:28:06,780
care about us you know what what makes

2184
01:28:09,590 --> 01:28:07,800
you assume that that sounds

2185
01:28:11,450 --> 01:28:09,600
anthropocentric or something

2186
01:28:12,350 --> 01:28:11,460
and what we're saying with this model is

2187
01:28:14,870 --> 01:28:12,360
that

2188
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:14,880
Consciousness is fundamental

2189
01:28:19,250 --> 01:28:17,280
human consciousness is derivative of

2190
01:28:22,070 --> 01:28:19,260
something deeper something that is

2191
01:28:24,950 --> 01:28:22,080
common to all consciousnesses across the

2192
01:28:28,010 --> 01:28:24,960
cosmos because ultimately those are all

2193
01:28:30,290 --> 01:28:28,020
to some degree relative experiences of

2194
01:28:31,450 --> 01:28:30,300
individuality but are ultimately part of

2195
01:28:33,770 --> 01:28:31,460
this original

2196
01:28:36,350 --> 01:28:33,780
connected Consciousness that ultimately

2197
01:28:38,750 --> 01:28:36,360
comes down to one Consciousness right

2198
01:28:41,990 --> 01:28:38,760
and again what's fascinating is even

2199
01:28:43,010 --> 01:28:42,000
Hoffman's equations show this right you

2200
01:28:49,370 --> 01:28:43,020
can

2201
01:28:51,350 --> 01:28:49,380
have two people and they are two

2202
01:28:53,090 --> 01:28:51,360
conscious agents but even in the math

2203
01:28:54,649 --> 01:28:53,100
you can also describe their new

2204
01:28:57,050 --> 01:28:54,659
interaction and lessons they learn

2205
01:28:59,270 --> 01:28:57,060
together as a new conscious agent right

2206
01:29:01,850 --> 01:28:59,280
in the math that works and you can scale

2207
01:29:04,430 --> 01:29:01,860
that all the way up to all of the

2208
01:29:07,610 --> 01:29:04,440
sentient beings in the cosmos becoming

2209
01:29:09,590 --> 01:29:07,620
one ultimate conscious agent which again

2210
01:29:10,689 --> 01:29:09,600
sounds a lot like the mind of God sounds

2211
01:29:15,229 --> 01:29:10,699
a lot like

2212
01:29:18,770 --> 01:29:15,239
the lessons of ancient spiritual

2213
01:29:21,110 --> 01:29:18,780
Traditions sounds like idealism but

2214
01:29:23,149 --> 01:29:21,120
again what's fascinating is we're seeing

2215
01:29:25,310 --> 01:29:23,159
evidence pointing in this direction as

2216
01:29:28,850 --> 01:29:25,320
much from science as we are from you

2217
01:29:33,770 --> 01:29:31,610
and and the role of high strangeness

2218
01:29:36,410 --> 01:29:33,780
then is to

2219
01:29:38,570 --> 01:29:36,420
function as a kind of

2220
01:29:40,490 --> 01:29:38,580
uh disrupter

2221
01:29:44,209 --> 01:29:40,500
and a teacher

2222
01:29:45,410 --> 01:29:44,219
in a way pointing at this deeper

2223
01:29:48,830 --> 01:29:45,420
state

2224
01:29:52,550 --> 01:29:48,840
that it's uh it's a cold water if you

2225
01:29:56,030 --> 01:29:52,560
will to kind of wake you up from from a

2226
01:29:58,850 --> 01:29:56,040
way of being that

2227
01:30:01,610 --> 01:29:58,860
that in some ways is uh is like a cloud

2228
01:30:03,669 --> 01:30:01,620
it's it's a it's it's it's a veil that

2229
01:30:06,110 --> 01:30:03,679
you've kept over yourself to not to

2230
01:30:07,729 --> 01:30:06,120
keeping you away from this deep deeper

2231
01:30:10,910 --> 01:30:07,739
truth

2232
01:30:14,330 --> 01:30:10,920
um so in this way we should celebrate

2233
01:30:16,790 --> 01:30:14,340
the high strangeness that that we

2234
01:30:18,590 --> 01:30:16,800
encounter we should

2235
01:30:20,930 --> 01:30:18,600
um

2236
01:30:22,669 --> 01:30:20,940
look at how it can be incorporated in

2237
01:30:24,830 --> 01:30:22,679
our experience we should we should

2238
01:30:27,669 --> 01:30:24,840
listen to others experiences of high

2239
01:30:30,110 --> 01:30:27,679
strangeness and and think about how that

2240
01:30:33,169 --> 01:30:30,120
impacted their lives as the individual

2241
01:30:35,990 --> 01:30:33,179
how it thus impacts our lives in

2242
01:30:38,209 --> 01:30:36,000
relationship with them and and then the

2243
01:30:41,330 --> 01:30:38,219
new meaning which emerges from that

2244
01:30:44,209 --> 01:30:41,340
relationship Dynamic uh between our

2245
01:30:46,250 --> 01:30:44,219
personal story their story and the story

2246
01:30:49,370 --> 01:30:46,260
that emerges between the two

2247
01:30:52,129 --> 01:30:49,380
uh these are the the sort of things that

2248
01:30:53,090 --> 01:30:52,139
begin to happen when you look at the

2249
01:30:57,649 --> 01:30:53,100
world

2250
01:31:00,050 --> 01:30:57,659
in this way in this non-dual way and you

2251
01:31:02,689 --> 01:31:00,060
you come to find

2252
01:31:05,629 --> 01:31:02,699
all of these opportunities as as as

2253
01:31:09,050 --> 01:31:05,639
bizarre and strange as they may be to

2254
01:31:10,970 --> 01:31:09,060
celebrate uh conscious expression in all

2255
01:31:11,689 --> 01:31:10,980
its forms

2256
01:31:14,149 --> 01:31:11,699
um

2257
01:31:16,129 --> 01:31:14,159
even the ones that are disturbing and

2258
01:31:18,649 --> 01:31:16,139
and frightening because you because

2259
01:31:20,810 --> 01:31:18,659
you're now situating these things in a

2260
01:31:23,570 --> 01:31:20,820
totally different Paradigm you're not

2261
01:31:27,110 --> 01:31:23,580
situating them as adversarial you're

2262
01:31:30,169 --> 01:31:27,120
situating them as beneficial to your

2263
01:31:33,169 --> 01:31:30,179
growth and development to your expanding

2264
01:31:36,050 --> 01:31:33,179
awareness of how things really are

2265
01:31:37,990 --> 01:31:36,060
yeah and to to use that analogy

2266
01:31:41,689 --> 01:31:38,000
you know we understand that toddlers

2267
01:31:43,310 --> 01:31:41,699
will get feisty and throw tantrums and

2268
01:31:45,050 --> 01:31:43,320
think that everything belongs to them

2269
01:31:46,550 --> 01:31:45,060
and they go through stages where they

2270
01:31:48,830 --> 01:31:46,560
they think everyone should make

2271
01:31:51,169 --> 01:31:48,840
decisions and act according to what they

2272
01:31:54,770 --> 01:31:51,179
want right

2273
01:31:56,930 --> 01:31:54,780
really at the at the bottom of it evil

2274
01:31:58,430 --> 01:31:56,940
really is more about immaturity of

2275
01:32:00,410 --> 01:31:58,440
Consciousness right that if everything

2276
01:32:02,810 --> 01:32:00,420
ultimately is this undivided substrate

2277
01:32:04,850 --> 01:32:02,820
of Consciousness then

2278
01:32:06,290 --> 01:32:04,860
not only am I no different than you

2279
01:32:08,930 --> 01:32:06,300
ultimately

2280
01:32:13,070 --> 01:32:08,940
only relatively are we different but so

2281
01:32:15,050 --> 01:32:13,080
too are the the abducting aliens who are

2282
01:32:16,850 --> 01:32:15,060
conducting experiments on people right

2283
01:32:18,709 --> 01:32:16,860
they they too are going through that

2284
01:32:21,590 --> 01:32:18,719
experience of going through many

2285
01:32:23,930 --> 01:32:21,600
lifetimes and learning

2286
01:32:25,729 --> 01:32:23,940
sometimes the hard way but inevitably

2287
01:32:28,129 --> 01:32:25,739
learning that we are all connected and

2288
01:32:29,450 --> 01:32:28,139
to harm someone else is to harm yourself

2289
01:32:31,310 --> 01:32:29,460
so

2290
01:32:33,530 --> 01:32:31,320
again I think of the spirit of science

2291
01:32:35,930 --> 01:32:33,540
where where it says that

2292
01:32:36,709 --> 01:32:35,940
the great thing about reality is that it

2293
01:32:38,810 --> 01:32:36,719
will

2294
01:32:41,870 --> 01:32:38,820
do what it does regardless of how you

2295
01:32:43,610 --> 01:32:41,880
feel about it right and so the scientist

2296
01:32:45,709 --> 01:32:43,620
who really Embraces the spirit of

2297
01:32:48,229 --> 01:32:45,719
science says listen if weird things

2298
01:32:50,450 --> 01:32:48,239
happen that show me that my hypothesis

2299
01:32:52,310 --> 01:32:50,460
about reality is wrong I should embrace

2300
01:32:54,890 --> 01:32:52,320
that because that's the great thing

2301
01:32:57,169 --> 01:32:54,900
about reality it tells me what really is

2302
01:33:00,470 --> 01:32:57,179
regardless of what I think about what

2303
01:33:03,530 --> 01:33:00,480
really is and so hopefully eventually

2304
01:33:06,890 --> 01:33:03,540
High strangeness will be the next level

2305
01:33:09,290 --> 01:33:06,900
of data that begins to unravel our

2306
01:33:11,149 --> 01:33:09,300
current Notions of of reality and not

2307
01:33:13,250 --> 01:33:11,159
only give us new ones but again

2308
01:33:15,590 --> 01:33:13,260
hopefully bring meaning and purpose back

2309
01:33:19,610 --> 01:33:15,600
into lives which could hopefully

2310
01:33:22,370 --> 01:33:19,620
transform human civilization altogether

2311
01:33:24,649 --> 01:33:22,380
all worth celebrating well it's been a

2312
01:33:27,950 --> 01:33:24,659
wonderful conversation uh this evening

2313
01:33:29,450 --> 01:33:27,960
thank you for uh having this with me and

2314
01:33:31,669 --> 01:33:29,460
exploring the Contours of high

2315
01:33:34,090 --> 01:33:31,679
strangeness together and I know we'll

2316
01:33:36,709 --> 01:33:34,100
continue to do so in the podcasts ahead

2317
01:33:38,810 --> 01:33:36,719
so as we close

2318
01:33:40,490 --> 01:33:38,820
this episode of liminal frames we thank

2319
01:33:43,129 --> 01:33:40,500
you for for listening

2320
01:33:44,930 --> 01:33:43,139
and uh and for your comments and shares

2321
01:33:46,790 --> 01:33:44,940
it means a lot to us we do read all of

2322
01:33:49,669 --> 01:33:46,800
them and look forward to continuing the

2323
01:33:52,310 --> 01:33:49,679
conversation with all of you as well

2324
01:33:54,770 --> 01:33:52,320
May the quality of our questions shaped

2325
01:33:56,930 --> 01:33:54,780
by a desire for understanding enhance

2326
01:33:59,149 --> 01:33:56,940
our journey of discovery

2327
01:34:01,970 --> 01:33:59,159
and may our travels broaden the sphere

2328
01:34:05,030 --> 01:34:01,980
of our Consciousness reminding us that

2329
01:34:06,590 --> 01:34:05,040
new discoveries beget New Horizons

2330
01:34:09,169 --> 01:34:06,600
as always

2331
01:34:14,070 --> 01:34:09,179
Adventure awaits we'll see you next time

2332
01:34:17,870 --> 01:34:16,200
[Music]

2333
01:34:24,150 --> 01:34:17,880
[Laughter]